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Old 09-01-2012, 01:46 PM
 
31,367 posts, read 35,157,407 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Grass Fever View Post
This thread was in response to the newly-born republican mantra of "we built America" or something to that effect which comes off as some supposed captains of industry would spout. It also reeks of aristocracy.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Your title is trollish to say the least and that last thing C-D needs is an excuse for the trolls to up from under the bridge.
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Old 09-01-2012, 01:57 PM
 
Location: The middle of nowhere Arkansas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrier View Post
"We built this city..."

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Old 09-01-2012, 02:04 PM
 
Location: The middle of nowhere Arkansas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeafChick View Post
Yes, it was built on the back of Black Slaves. Why is everyone denying this?

Only AFTER Slavery was abolished, that Immigrants were exploited.

If Slavery wasn't abolished, I'm sure most of you wouldnt be here.
Welllll actually, you're wrong. While the southern rich were busy taking advantage of the blacks in the south the northern rich were busy taking advantage of the irish up north. Make no mistake, I'd rather have been an irishman up north but nonetheless the irish were treated, ahem, badly.


source
Quote:
The Irish
The Irish were unfortunately divided during much of the nineteenth century and was therefore helpless in the face of its grave problems. The Act of Union of 1803 incorporated the island into British polity, but was useless in easing the difficult situation of the people.. With an overly large population as the result of the Napoleanic Wars, the Irish soon became impoverished. And with the religious prejudice of Protestant Masters to the Catholic Irish, plus political subordination, many had no alternative by to emigrate to the United States for relief. Between 1820 and 1860, the Irish were never less than a third of all immigrants. The British Passenger Acts attempted to deflect the immigration from the British Isles to Canada instead of the U.S., making the fare a cheap 15 shilling compared to the 4 or 5 pound fare to New York. Many Irish soon found it convenient to take the affordable trip to Canada, where they could buy cheap fares to the U.S., or cheaper yet, they could walk across the border. By 1840, the Irish constituted nearly half of all entering immigrants, and New England found it self heavily foreign born. By 1950, the Irish consisted of one fifth of all foreign born in the originally homogenous region.

In 1845, the great potato rot touched off a mass migration. The disaster eliminated the sole subsistence of millions of peasants, thrusting them over the edge of starvation. For five weary years, the crops remained undependable, and famine swept through the land. Untold thousands perished, and the survivors, destitute of hope, wished only to get away (Handlin, 1972).

The only mode of escape was emigration. Starving families that could not pay landlords faced no alternative but to leave the country in hopes of a better future. And thus the steadily scaling number of Irish who entered the U.S. between 1820 and 1830 skyrocketed in the 1840s, nearly 2 million came in that decade. The flow persisted increasingly for another five years, as the first immigrants began to earn the means of sending for relatives and friends. The decade after 1855 showed a subside in the movement, but smaller numbers continued to arrive after the Civil War. Altogether, almost 3.5 million Irishmen entered the U.S. between 1820 and 1880.

Emigrating to the U.S. wasn't the magical solution for most of the immigrants. Peasants arrived without resources, or capital to start farms or businesses. Few of them ever accumulated the resources to make any meaningful choice about their way of life. Fortunately for them, the expansion of the American economy created heavy demands for muscle grunt. The great canals, which were the first links in the national transportation system were still being dug in the 1820s and 1830s, and in the time between 1830 and 1880, thousands of miles of rail were being laid. With no bulldozers existing at the time, the pick and the shovel were the only earth-moving equipment at the time. And the Irish laborers were the mainstay of the construction gangs that did this grueling work. In towns along the sites of work, groups of Irish formed their small communities to live in. By the middle of the nineteenth century, as American cities were undergoing rapid growth and beginning to develop an infrastructure and creating the governmental machinery and personnel necessary to run it, the Irish and their children got their first foothold- on the ground floor. Irish policemen and firemen are not just stereotypes: Irish all but monopolized those jobs when they were being created in the post-Civil War years, and even today Irish names are clearly over-represented in those occupations (Daniels, 1990). Irish workmen not only began laying the horsecar and streetcar tracks, but were some of the first drivers and conductors. The first generations worked largely at unskilled and semiskilled occupations, but their children found themselves working at increasingly skilled trades. By 1900, when Irish American mend made up about a thirteenth of the male labor force, they were almost a third of the plumbers, steamfitters, and boilermakers. Industry working Irish soon found themselves lifted up into boss and straw-boss positions as common laborers more and more arrived from southern and eastern Europe- Italians, Slavs, and Hungarians.

In years after 1860, Irish Immigration persisted. More than 2.6 million Irish came in the decades after 1860. However, larger numbers of immigrants from elsewhere masked the inflow of Irish people. Those Irish who did continue to flow into the U.S. tended to settle in the already existing Irish communities, where Catholic Churches had been built, and cultural traditions were carried out. However materialistically poor they were, the Irish were rich in cultural resources, developing institutions that helped them face hardship without despair. Cultural events such as St. Patrick's Day were regarded by most Americans as evidence of the separateness of these immigrants, but helped hold the Irish culture together. Their desire for self-expression showed that the Irish understood their group identity. Poor as they were, they drew strength from a culture that explained their situation in the world and provided spiritual resources to face if not to solve the problem. Aside from the church, the most important media of that culture were the press and the stage. All Irish newspapers had either a nationalistic or a religious base, some published as church organs, other drawing support from patriotic societies. Their newspapers interpreted news, accommodated information, and printed popular poems and stories. The stage was even more appealing because it did not demand literacy, presenting to attentive audiences dramas as real as life but not as painful. By the late 1800s, the painful initial Irish transplantation into American society had ended. Second and third generation born and educated in the U.S. replaced the immigrants, but their heritage still stemmed from the peasants' flight from Ireland and of the hardships of striking new roots in the New World.

Last edited by Dutchman01; 09-01-2012 at 02:29 PM..
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman01 View Post
Welllll actually, your wrong. While the southern rich were busy taking advantage of the blacks in the south the northern rich were busy taking advantage of the irish up north. Make no mistake, I'd rather have been an irishman up north but nonetheless the irish were treated, ahem, badly.
Perhaps that's evidence of what it takes to progress. Maybe raising our boys to talk about feelings hasn't been as rewarding as we had hoped.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,545 posts, read 19,954,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Another case of making it up as we go...

Slavery was abolished in New York in 1799. Construction on the canal began in 1817.
This was true in the south. Canals were dug by cheap Irish workers. The toll in accidents and deaths on what was very dangerous work was high. Nobody was going to risk slaves which were part of someone's personal wealth.

And the railroads used immigrants, most Irish and Chinese for the identical reason. They didn't cost much. It was a high mortality job as well. Its been said that for every mile of track there is a body buried underneath. This was common, and even if buried off the tracks it was in unmarked and lost graves. They didn't matter anymore in death than in life.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Yeah right.





Yes, slaves were so valued as property that in the wake of the Nat Turner rebellion 200 slaves were murdered in retaliation a number which didn't include the 55 executed for actually taking part in it.
Whipping came across the pond along with the white English poor and Irish who were the origionals. It was the basis of punishment, along with other options, for those indentured frequently adding time for nearly anything. And yes, this was a rebellion. Armed rebellion would be met with more than normal. That is not the same as taking risks in the kind of work a slave was made to do. If you could hire a gang of irish and only pay the survivors a pittance, it was financially better than risking weath die by falling into the mud and being buried. Remember slaves were the primary source of wealth for large plantation owners especially. They were clearly not expendable unless the circumstances were extraordinary.

This is in line with the reactions of slave/servant rebellions in earlier times, especially in the west indies which included both white and black chattel.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:31 PM
 
Location: The middle of nowhere Arkansas
3,325 posts, read 3,008,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Homogenizer View Post
Perhaps that's evidence of what it takes to progress. Maybe raising our boys to talk about feelings hasn't been as rewarding as we had hoped.
Ok, you completely lost me on this post. Further explanation required please.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
44,877 posts, read 31,491,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReefAreCoolToo View Post
Maybe all the Irish, the Chinese and some eastern Europeans should come out in horde demanding for the whole world since they basically built the continental railroad and been treated like **** back then???? No they moved on and learned and work hard for it and be successful.

Nobody is holding you back..it's yourself

I wonder if those Central Pacific workers of Chinese origin were "buried" by some of the Irish from the Union Pacific. I guess if you have those pictures you do know that very often cliffs were blown away by people from the UP side to slow the Chinese down.

Also, I guess you know about the day that that group of Irish immigrants, eight of them in all, laid that over 10 miles of track. That day's work is still a world record and the machines of today will never beat what those men did that day.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:41 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Exactly, while freedom is more important poor white immigrants were treated far worse than most slaves because they were considered expendable. They weren't property and there is no capital investment in them.

While you can argue white immigrants enjoyed freedom the fact of the matter is they had to work under some very hard conditions or die hence the reason so many kids were employed in the mines. In these mining towns the mining company owned everything; housing, the stores, the land. They were paid enough wages to just keep them in perpetual debt. The common story is the man of the house dies in a mining accident and the widow finds him on the front porch of the company owned house with an eviction notice and a final bill from the company store.
If anybody who believes that blacks built everything should happen to read the book, How the Other Half Lives" by Jacob Riis they may realize that very few black people made up the other half in New York City and the other cities of the north. Yes, it was European, and largely eastern ones, at that, that built those cities that blacks moved to later that the 1880s.
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Old 09-01-2012, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Another case of making it up as we go...

Slavery was abolished in New York in 1799. Construction on the canal began in 1817.
Slavery or not I think you may find that horses, mules and white immigrants built that canal and the railroads of the period. Speaking of that building have you ever seen that picture from the 1930s where they men were eating lunch on a girder at about floor 60 of the Empire State building. There was not a black man in the group of about 15. That picture hangs in the rest room of a food store I go to now and then and I never miss looking at it and wondering how people can work that high up.
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