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Old 09-04-2012, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Long Island
28,428 posts, read 16,359,517 times
Reputation: 7906

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
He was a leftist libertarian. Fiscally conservative, but socially very liberal.



Monarchy's very existence is based on heritage and tradition. The king is determined by his familial ties. It was defended on the basis of stability and tradition. It was the status quo. It was very conservative.
uhm

conservative means small..to conserve

hiltler and stalin were DICTATORS much like hugo chavez....

but the NASI's were the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (National Socialist German Workers’ Party) and they are very close to the MODERN liberal

the FACT is HISTORY has shown us what happens when you turn a blind eye.





simple things like 'nationalizing' corporations, nationalization of all trusts(banks),social security, eminate domain(agrarian reform) , removing the guns from the people, demand the end of capitolism, state(country) provided education, blame the jews (or the modern version 'the zionists'),.. 'fairness doctrine"( censorship of talk radia), redistribution of wealth).....COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD .........

DO THESE SOUND FAMILIAR, YES THE ARE THE TALKING POINTS OF THE DNC AND MOVEON.ORG..................
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THEY ARE ALSO A LARGE PART OF HITLERS 25 POINTS




hitler came into power because germany (after ww1) was in economic depression and he was the candidate of 'hope and change',, his plans slowly moved from being helpful to dreadful,,he took true socialism, and spun it with fascism and the next thing you know he is a liberaL dictator
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:15 PM
 
775 posts, read 688,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases."
— Thomas Jefferson


"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
— Thomas Jefferson


"A government afraid of its citizens is a Democracy."
— Thomas Jefferson
You really do not want to enter a Jefferson quote-battle. It won't end in your favor.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Long Island
28,428 posts, read 16,359,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
You really do not want to enter a Jefferson quote-battle. It won't end in your favor.

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
what do the second 2 have to do with anything...check my history...I am not religous

as to the first quote.....who formed the fed...the liberals that made a central bank
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:17 PM
 
775 posts, read 688,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
uhm

conservative means small..to conserve
It means to preserve the status quo, yes. But not necessarily small. Monarchy was the status quo, it derived its very power from heritage and tradition, and the very terms Left and Right came from Rightists who supported the monarchy, and leftists who opposed it!


Oh, and Hitler hated communists, liberals and trade unionists with a passion, and gassed many of them in concentration camps.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:19 PM
 
775 posts, read 688,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
what do the second 2 have to do with anything...check my history...I am not religous
Good for you. Doesn't mean Jefferson wasn't a leftist libertarian, as I've pointed out.

Quote:
as to the first quote.....who formed the fed...the liberals that made a central bank
Yes, and Jefferson certainly would not join the democrats today. But he would hate the republican party just as much, if not more. Its pro-corporate policies, warmongering and intermingling of church and state wouldn't please the Apostle of Liberty at all.

Again, a leftist libertarian.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,712 posts, read 12,538,368 times
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I'm pretty liberal (socially anyway), but the underlying premise in the OP is simply not justifiable: that change is always preferable to the status quo.

That there are things in any era that ought to be changed, I don't doubt; but the point is to change the right things and in the right way, and not to do more harm than good along the way.

Many liberals--not all--are oblivious to this point. They see a problem, they see themselves in the heroic role of fixing it, and they don't especially care about what the collateral effects may be. One of the worst excesses of this attitude has been to give almost unlimited power to the so-called child protection system, which hijacked the issue of child abuse to the point that parents can now be presumed guilty of something no matter what they may be doing.

Thomas Sowell's great book "The Vision of the Anointed" touches on this tendency in liberalism, and it has been a major influence in my life, even while I disagree with most of Sowell's explicit politics.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,712 posts, read 12,538,368 times
Reputation: 4165
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases."
— Thomas Jefferson

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
— Thomas Jefferson

"A government afraid of its citizens is a Democracy."
— Thomas Jefferson
Those are approximate paraphrases of things Jefferson believed, but they are not verbatim quotations.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:26 PM
 
775 posts, read 688,480 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
I'm pretty liberal (socially anyway), but the underlying premise in the OP is simply not justifiable: that change is always preferable to the status quo.
It's not necessarily that change is inherently good, and the status quo is inherently bad. It's that the mindset that leads to one adhering to the status quo tends to end in failure.
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Old 09-04-2012, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Palo Alto
12,152 posts, read 7,776,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
Conservatives love to talk about the past, the founding fathers, and "traditional values", so they should put their facts where their mouth is.
It used to be conservatives liked talking about the past. But that's when they were really liberals. Liberals liked to plan for the future, but that's when they were really conservatives. Conservatives today take a liberal approach to the conservative views of the past, but only because they were actually liberal then. The liberals today take a progressive approach to the future which in 50 years will really be viewed as a moderate approach by the conservatives today.

All I care about is what the economy is doing today. Right now.
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Old 09-04-2012, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Houston
26,987 posts, read 14,149,534 times
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Why did Hayek and Friedman refer to themselves as liberals?

I am a classical liberal. Yes, classical liberalism is responsible for human progress since the days of the Protestant Reformation. Classical liberalism, with its' emphasis on individual liberty, has little to do with the doctrines of the modern "liberal".

Quote:
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
From Sowell's The Vision of the Anointed:

Quote:
Whether free-market libertarians or statists ranging from those with monarchist to fascist views, opponents of the left are called "the right." In the United States, especially, the related term "conservative" is routinely used to encompass people who have no desire to preserve the status quo or to return to some status quo or to return to some status quo ante. Friedrich Hayek, for more than half a century a prime opponent of leftist policies on the international stage, was thus considered a conservative, if not part of "the far right." Yet Hayek himself wrote an article entitled, "Why I Am Not a Conservative." Milton Friedman has likewise repudiated the "conservative" label and wrote a book entitled The Tyranny of the Status Quo. Yet he is regarded as the leading "conservative" intellectual of his age, though many of the things he advocates have never existed in any society, or -- like school vouchers -- did not exist when he first advocated them. Among so-called "black conservatives," it is virtually impossible to find anyone who wants to go back to anything, this group being opposed to both the racial discrimination policies of the past and the racial preference policies that came after them.

Although the free market is clearly the antithesis of state control of the economy, such as fascists advocate, the left-right dichotomy makes it seem as if fascists are just more extreme versions of "conservatives," in the same sense in which socialism is a more extreme version of the welfare state. But this vision of a symmetrical political spectrum corresponds to no empirical reality. Those who advocate the free market typically do so as just one aspect of a more general vision in which government's role in the lives of individuals is to be minimized, within limits set by a need to avoid anarchy and a need to maintain military defense against other nations. In no sense is fascism a further extension of that idea. It is in fact the antithesis of that whole line of thinking. Yet much talk in terms of left and right suggests that there is a political spectrum which proceeds from the center to conservatives to "far right" neo-fascism to fascism itself.

The only logic to such a conception is that it allows disparate opponents of the vision of the anointed to be lumped together and dismissed through guilt by association.
The last classical liberal to gain a major party presidential nomination was Barry Goldwater, the leading conservative of his day.

I think we would be better off comparing small government leaders such as Washington and Jefferson with big government leaders such as Hitler, Stalin and Mao.

Last edited by whogo; 09-04-2012 at 04:41 PM..
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