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Old 09-05-2012, 07:51 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 55,593,492 times
Reputation: 24770

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JTBUV - Do you really believe people think before they vote? Some do but most just emote or do what some authority tells then to do. This is why we are a Republic instead of a direct democracy.

In my observation government is sometimes inept (except for making certain all the elderly Republicans get their Social Security checks) but that the corporate sector is always inimical. At the core all corporations are just trying to get people to buy what they do not need with money they, because of corporate collusion, do not have but can borrow.

Conservatives always are behind because they desire to live in a time and manner that exists only in their delusions. Those glory days never happened. Hopefully, they never will.
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Old 09-05-2012, 07:52 AM
 
8,761 posts, read 4,986,339 times
Reputation: 8044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
Premise 1: Conservatism is defined as the relative support of tradition, of the status quo and opposition to change, while liberalism is opposition to the status quo and support of change.

Premise 2: Democrats were not always liberals, and Republicans were not always conservatives.



The silliest threads by the leftist fanatics, always start with lies about the most basic things.

This one is clearly no exception.

Just because you can't understand it, doesn't mean it's silly.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:00 AM
 
Location: Houston
26,980 posts, read 14,239,520 times
Reputation: 11259
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkBeforeYouVote View Post
Names mean nothing. "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea"...is that country a democratic nation?

You people trying to call Hitler a socialist are so far beyond help, it's just pathetic.
HE MURDERED SOCIALISTS.
HE WAS ENEMIES WITH THE UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS

If you can't understand that, you're really not bright enough to understand much of anything. It's really as simple of a concept as there possibly exists.

Facism and Marxism are two forms of socialism. Unlike, you I have a major in economics and a minor in political science. I suggest you check out the Sowell quote I placed earlier in this thread. It makes clear why facism is not the polar opposite of socialism as nimrods have been led to believe.You being a libertarian I will give you credit for at least somehow having your political bearings in the right direction.

I also, once again, suggest you google "Hitler's 25 point plan".

You need to expand your GED based knowledge, try reading a couple books and not just weblinks or the history channel.

The fact is siblings kill each other, members of different Muslim and Christian sects kill each other and socialists kill each other. Who killed Trotsky?

Hitler was a Nationa Socialist, that is what his party was named. It was not a misnomer.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:02 AM
 
63,170 posts, read 48,740,176 times
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In a wierd paradox if liberals want to change things to make them better, once they are changed should we not want to keep those in place....which would by the OP's definition be conservatism?

As one example, the major social changes that occured in the late 1960's were needed but some of the changes had a horrible impact on american society.

The explosion in broken family units, unwed mothers, explosion in crime, std's etc. were obviously a negative that came along with so many positives. (since the OP asked for examples).

Frankly, I find the entire premise to be silly as if people neatly fit in a box labeled conservative or liberal and that one side is always right and the other side is always wrong. Anyone claiming absolutes is usually not a deep thinker.
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Old 09-05-2012, 08:06 AM
 
8,761 posts, read 4,986,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperJohn View Post
Things were stable in Germany before Hitler uprooted the status quo...
I really hope you're being sarcastic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua View Post
Conservatism is the bedrock of civilization. Liberalism tweaks that bedrock to help perfect it.

They are both equally important and they have co-existed for as long as intelligent life has been on this planet.

It is the details that we fight about.
But if it's being constantly tweaked... and constantly the base is shifting (ie: womens rights, slavery) as it's being shifted... Then are the liberals not the bedrock of civilization, while the conservatives are the ones being dragged into the next era?

(just food for thought)
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Metairie, La.
1,156 posts, read 1,685,495 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkBeforeYouVote View Post
Socialism and Fascism CAN'T mix
They are polar opposite of each other.

Seriously, do you people know how to read?

Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization

Socialism: A political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Not even close to one another. You people need to go back to high school and learn this stuff.
Wonder why this country is in an economic funk? We allow people like "workingclasshero" to vote based solely on ignorance and not on an intellectual analysis of the candidates. They take one idea, misconstrue it and then they don't let it go. They vote against their own best interests because they don't know any better.

How can a country possibly improve and evolve if you allow the ignorant masses (who can't even tell that the far left and the far right are polar opposites of one another) to control our fate?

And tell me, how is the current GOP platform NOT a Christian-theologistic fascism again? Which party is it that wants to actually amend the constitution to deny rights to a specific group? Which party is it that wants to take away a woman's right to choose?

The ignorance is appalling.
I'd add a little to the definition of National Socialism (Naziism/Fascism). Based on Paxton's definition in Anatomy of Fascism, it's unique among many political/economic systems in that it requires violence and war to carry out its program. For perpetual warfar to continue, Naziism/Fascism needs a slave labor force to make sure the state can profit from its warfaring program.

So it's a right-wing, nationalistic government and socio-economic organization in which violence and perpetual war are required, which provides a rationale for the continuance of a slave labor system derived from a marginalized sector in a given society.

I don't think you're going to convince many people here on C-D that National Socialism and Socialism are polar opposites. I've taught college level classes on the holocaust and I've assigned several books and articles on this subject. On tests and essays, just about every student writes that "Hilter and the Nazis were socialists, like Obama..." which demonstrates that few actually did the reading assignments.

People believe what they want to believe. Similarly, when I teach the freshman level history surveys, I do this every semester. I ask students to define "liberalism" and "conservatism". Most students at my state school are very conservative, yet few if any can state any attribute of either liberalism or conservatism.

I ask: Somebody tell me one attribute or belief that can be identified with liberalism? Then you can hear crickets chirping (maybe some smart ass says something like "they're tree-huggers.") Then after the uncomfortable silence when the students are looking at me, in between their text messages, like I'm crazy, I ask: Somebody state one attribute or belief identified with conservatism. Crickets chirping...then somebody says "They're for freedom." Then I say, "I give up."

Kind of a digression there, but most Americans don't know what a political spectrum is, nor do many care. Liberalism is what most people on C-D are against. They can't define it. Conservatism is what most folks on C-D are for, but they can't define it.
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,782 posts, read 15,903,551 times
Reputation: 7968
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan
Progressive Era: Few would deny that the Progressives were liberals. They gave women suffrage. They ended child labor. They enacted the first big regulations on corporations that even conservatives today would agree with. Some helped advance civil rights. What did conservatives do? They opposed all of this, tooth and nail.
Let's not forget that the progressives also brought us alcohol prohibition.

And they were very devoted to racism, based on the cockamamie theories of genetics that were fashionable in academia at the time. Woodrow Wilson, who had been president of Princeton before becoming POTUS, worked to bar blacks from Princeton, and as POTUS resegregated the federal workforce.
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Metairie, La.
1,156 posts, read 1,685,495 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Let's not forget that the progressives also brought us alcohol prohibition.

And they were very devoted to racism, based on the cockamamie theories of genetics that were fashionable in academia at the time. Woodrow Wilson, who had been president of Princeton before becoming POTUS, worked to bar blacks from Princeton, and as POTUS resegregated the federal workforce.
Progressivism was shared by politicians in both political parties, and conservatives and liberals alike promoted and supported alcohol prohibition. Wilson--definitely a progressive. Teddy Roosevelt, and Taft, too, were progressive.

I think people on this thread are getting their labels all mixed up. Naziism is not equal to socialism; liberalism is not socialism; liberalism is not fascism; progressivism (as an ideology in world history) is not modern day liberalism, etc, etc.

I think what is needed to aid this discussion is for a few of you to go out an actually read some books on the subjects you're writing about on this thread. Then there can be an informed discussion, rather than just the butchering of history.
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:44 AM
 
69,360 posts, read 59,935,434 times
Reputation: 9374
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkBeforeYouVote View Post
Hence his line "Republicans were not always conservative and Democrats not always liberal"

Learn how to read before responding to a thread.

The word "liberty" is the same as "liberal". This is not a difficult concept. This is why I have no faith in our political system, the uneducated ignorant voter's voices are louder than the voices of the educated and informed voters. You allow people with no knowledge of anything practical (though they know their Bible!) to control how our country "progresses". That's why we have constitutional amendments being proposed to prohibit gay marriage (like it has a negative effect on your life if two dudes want to get married) yet no true economic plan being laid out by anyone. That's why we still have illegal marijuana while things like Vioxx can be unleashed on the public and kill 50,000+ people. That's why we don't trade with Cuba because of their "poor human rights" while we hold hands with Saudi kings despite ACTUAL the complete lack of human rights there.
What part of conservatism says we should round up black people and return them to slavery? You posting garbage, after you post other garbage, doesnt validate your posting as accurate.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:03 AM
 
63,170 posts, read 48,740,176 times
Reputation: 39077
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordSquidworth View Post
But if it's being constantly tweaked... and constantly the base is shifting (ie: womens rights, slavery) as it's being shifted... Then are the liberals not the bedrock of civilization, while the conservatives are the ones being dragged into the next era?
Your core premise is that every change is for the better.

You know, like US expansion into Indian territories, Vietnam, Korea, grabbing Hawaii.....

Don't forget NAFTA, that was a big change.

This is such a silly silly thread.
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