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Old 09-05-2012, 12:19 PM
 
4,739 posts, read 4,106,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unounehana View Post
No, it's simply taking the definitions and applying them.

Let's take slavery. Conservatives at the time wanted to keep the status quo, slavery. Liberals, those who are against the status quo wanted it abolish. Slavery was then abolished, a very liberal stance. Now conservatives and liberals alike don't believe in slavery.

How are these lies? EVERY credible history book kind of confirms this. Please state an example where conservatives took an issue and changed it from the status quo or not revert to a previous position. Conservatives, by definition, try to retain the status quo.


The OP, as well as a lot on this poster, are making a curious line. They have linked in their mind a quasi-political definition (Conservatism) to actual conservative /constrained thinking. The sames goes for "leftist" or "liberals".


There were definitely people who supported slavery (for instance), yet there were conservatives who opposed it. I mean there is a lot of evidence at the time (and lots of countries) that showed slavery as a pretty negative thing to do (and ultimately un-productive).


You could argue the post in the opposite and cherry pick the times that unconstrained thought has led to crazy rules such as min wage, universal wage, communism, etc.

I see a pretty good mixture of both conservative principles and liberal principals in both parties.
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Old 09-05-2012, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Fiorina "Fury" 161
3,060 posts, read 3,150,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
As you can see, History has gradually shifted towards the left, not only over the American lifespan, but throughout all of civilization as well. If you don't believe me, list your major political stances, and compare them with the conservatives of, say, a century ago.

You'd be considered a leftist socialist loon.

Look at government spending then and now. Look at social programs then and now. Look at gay rights, feminism and civil rights then and now. Look at atheism statistics then and now.

Or, perhaps, you could answer this simple question:

Name one major accomplishment of conservatism.


"You didn't write that."



Signed,

Obama
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Maryland
628 posts, read 892,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
The pendulum swings back and forth and history works in cycles. Since the late 1960s we have been in an overall liberal-leaning era of history and the culture has been permeated with liberalism and liberal values. This wasn't always the case though. Through most of the first half of the 20th century, conservatives had the spotlight and controlled the direction of culture. It WILL swing back again, its just a matter of time.
the 1930s were sort of the heyday of actual socialism in the US. Which is why so many prominent people had trouble with McCarthy & the HUAAC in the 1950s.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
28,937 posts, read 16,838,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TriMT7 View Post
Jefferson also wrote about giving away land to people, and providing free education up through the university level so that bright people from not-so-rich families could compete. That kind of talk today would put him.... oh.... about Dennis Kucinich on the political spectrum.

That "provision of opportunity" is the heart of classic liberalism, and the antithesis of social darwinism (which isn't really social darwinism, but more like societally and governmentally sanctioned nepotism) that typifies conservativism today.
Free stuff is not free. It's a good thought, that anyone who wants to learn could do so for free. However, the teachers need to be paid, the learning materials need to be manufactured and paid for, schoolhouses need to be built, construction crews paid, the electricity to power the schools need to be purchased, and the list goes on and on.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Maryland
628 posts, read 892,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisFromChicago View Post
The OP, as well as a lot on this poster, are making a curious line. They have linked in their mind a quasi-political definition (Conservatism) to actual conservative /constrained thinking. The sames goes for "leftist" or "liberals".


There were definitely people who supported slavery (for instance), yet there were conservatives who opposed it. I mean there is a lot of evidence at the time (and lots of countries) that showed slavery as a pretty negative thing to do (and ultimately un-productive).
Slavery is productive in some conditions (usually in the category of "backbreaking labor no one would ever volunteer for especially at this pace") and non-productive under others, in perfectly economic terms (as opposed to moral terms). Whether it is a "conservative" issue or not depends on whether slavery has been traditionally used and regarded by the movers 'n' shakers as morally justified. Which means that the conservative position on slavery in the US especially in the 1800s would have been for it. It's been outlawed long enough in the US that no one is openly for it anymore.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:17 PM
 
4,739 posts, read 4,106,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post

Or, perhaps, you could answer this simple question:

Name one major accomplishment of conservatism.
Defeating the USSR? The world leader in unconstrained liberal policies. . .
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Metairie, La.
1,156 posts, read 1,685,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joykins View Post
the 1930s were sort of the heyday of actual socialism in the US. Which is why so many prominent people had trouble with McCarthy & the HUAAC in the 1950s.
Actually, the period between 1890 and 1919 was the real heyday of socialism in which socialist politicians controlled various city and state governments. By contrast, few socialists held political power in the 1930s.

History of the socialist movement in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:25 PM
 
4,739 posts, read 4,106,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joykins View Post
Slavery is productive in some conditions (usually in the category of "backbreaking labor no one would ever volunteer for especially at this pace") and non-productive under others, in perfectly economic terms (as opposed to moral terms). Whether it is a "conservative" issue or not depends on whether slavery has been traditionally used and regarded by the movers 'n' shakers as morally justified. Which means that the conservative position on slavery in the US especially in the 1800s would have been for it. It's been outlawed long enough in the US that no one is openly for it anymore.

I think your limiting the view of who is conservative until the silo makes sense.

The idea / premise of conservatism is that you make small, conservative, well tested changes. By 1860 quite a few people had seen enough evidence that slavery was bad, and therefore should be outlawed.


What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried? We stick to, contend for, the identical old policy on the point in controversy which was adopted by "our fathers who framed the Government under which we live;" while you with one accord reject, and scout, and spit upon that old policy, and insist upon substituting something new. True, you disagree among yourselves as to what that substitute shall be. You are divided on new propositions and plans, but you are unanimous in rejecting and denouncing the old policy of the fathers. Some of you are for reviving the foreign slave trade; some for a Congressional Slave-Code for the Territories; some for Congress forbidding the Territories to prohibit Slavery within their limits; some for maintaining Slavery in the Territories through the judiciary; some for the "gur-reat pur-rinciple" that "if one man would enslave another, no third man should object," fantastically called "Popular Sovereignty;" but never a man among you is in favor of federal prohibition of slavery in federal territories, according to the practice of "our fathers who framed the Government under which we live. - Lincoln's Cooper Union Address
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
28,937 posts, read 16,838,008 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
Or, perhaps, you could answer this simple question:

Name one major accomplishment of conservatism.
An environmentalist is a conservative who wants to preserve the environment. This alone proves how idiotic you rambling thread is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisFromChicago View Post
The OP, as well as a lot on this poster, are making a curious line. They have linked in their mind a quasi-political definition (Conservatism) to actual conservative /constrained thinking. The sames goes for "leftist" or "liberals".


There were definitely people who supported slavery (for instance), yet there were conservatives who opposed it. I mean there is a lot of evidence at the time (and lots of countries) that showed slavery as a pretty negative thing to do (and ultimately un-productive).


You could argue the post in the opposite and cherry pick the times that unconstrained thought has led to crazy rules such as min wage, universal wage, communism, etc.

I see a pretty good mixture of both conservative principles and liberal principals in both parties.
I have seen similar threads exactly like this one every few months. I think our schools are pumping out students who cannot think for themselves. Some teachers fill their students heads with this crap, and the kids swallow it without bothering to examine what is being taught.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Metairie, La.
1,156 posts, read 1,685,376 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapasha View Post
An environmentalist is a conservative who wants to preserve the environment. This alone proves how idiotic you rambling thread is.



I have seen similar threads exactly like this one every few months. I think our schools are pumping out students who cannot think for themselves. Some teachers fill their students heads with this crap, and the kids swallow it without bothering to examine what is being taught.
In defense of teachers, I'd argue that few students, if any, actually listen to what teachers say. For the most part, students don't give a darn about what's taught in school.
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