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Old 09-05-2012, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Maryland
628 posts, read 893,240 times
Reputation: 181

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisFromChicago View Post
I think your limiting the view of who is conservative until the silo makes sense.

The idea / premise of conservatism is that you make small, conservative, well tested changes. By 1860 quite a few people had seen enough evidence that slavery was bad, and therefore should be outlawed.
Yes--those who didn't rely on it for an income.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Maryland
628 posts, read 893,240 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiogenesofJackson View Post
Actually, the period between 1890 and 1919 was the real heyday of socialism in which socialist politicians controlled various city and state governments. By contrast, few socialists held political power in the 1930s.

History of the socialist movement in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
OK. Was there a popular resurgence or something in the 1930s or am I disremembering something? That article was about top-level party machinations in that period, without addressing the idea that a bunch of people in the entertainment industry were (or were thought to be?) somehow involved in the movement?
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:47 PM
 
775 posts, read 691,426 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by fightforlove View Post
[/list]"I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is." -- Ronald Reagan
That's bull****. The Tories supported the intermingling of church and state; while not all conservatives support this today, it certainly is a rightist ideal. Similarly, the Tories supported the quartering act, which certainly bears much resemblance to the Patriot Act. Reagan's quote espouses the fallacy that conservatives support "small" government. They simply support small government when it comes to social programs and domestic projects. They have no issue with using the government to wiretap your cell phone and bust drug addicts.



I also love how Reagan, like most conservatives, pay lip service to libertarianism, yet contradict it in nearly every way. Reagan actually tripled the deficit, if you recall. The patriots of the Revolution were essentially leftist libertarians, while the British were big government conservatives.



Quote:
Absolutely, Ron Paul is an intellectual. Can't get more conservative than him. Also, look up William F Buckley and Robert Taft.
Ron Paul is not a mainstream "conservative". It can be statistically demonstrated that the academia and sciences are largely leftist (IIRC, by as much as 70%).

Quote:

True conservatives oppose slavery and all forms of racism.
So your response to the evidence that "true" conservatives of the era supported slavery and racial segregation...is that, in hindsight, "true" conservatives oppose it?

Please.

Quote:
You left out the part where they banned booze and ignited the worst organized crime war in American history.
I dunno. Something about prohibition resembles the rightist war on drugs to me.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Metairie, La.
1,156 posts, read 1,686,776 times
Reputation: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joykins View Post
OK. Was there a popular resurgence or something in the 1930s or am I disremembering something? That article was about top-level party machinations in that period, without addressing the idea that a bunch of people in the entertainment industry were (or were thought to be?) somehow involved in the movement?
Certainly, in the 1930s there were people who identified as socialists, but they didn't have any political power. Few if any of their people could get elected to office, unlike the period between 1890 and 1919 when scores of socialist candidates found themselves in state legislatures and in city governments.

The 1930s era socialists usually displayed their frustrations with a capitalistic system that was broken and no longer serving society. In short, many of them believed that capitalism was a failure and needed to be replaced. They expressed their indignation in marches and protests, often which turned out violently thanks in part to both Democrats and Republicans in power who used their police authority to sack protesters. One among many examples was the Memorial Day Massacre of 1937 in which Chicago police shot labor protesters in the back as they tried to flee the scene.

In short, political leaders of the 1930s struggled to save capitalism from socialists masses. The socialists held little if any power of either federal, city, or state governments.
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Old 09-05-2012, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
11,412 posts, read 6,008,597 times
Reputation: 3644
Conservative means to conserve. As in, conserving things the way they are, or have been.

It is pretty obvious that conservatives basically lose every time there is a change in any policy whatsoever. And not all changes are for the better. I get so tired of hearing about how we need to "move forward". As if every change is a step in the right direction. In my opinion, most of the "moving forward" that we have had in the last 60 years, is really moving backwards.

Always remember, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:03 PM
 
4,112 posts, read 3,305,533 times
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Well, if you define conservative as resistance to change, and we all agree things have gotten better, then of course conservatives where wrong in the past. But not all of the positions that is stated are conservative. For instance the people who were considered conservative back in the days, loved watching Opera and the liberals were mostly in business. That is the exact opposite from today. So, its not entirely fair to look at old history.

However, lets look at modern history. You mentioned
Civil Rights movement
Women Suffrage
Gay Rights

But what about
Traditional marriage: New York is the least happy state, and also the state with the lowest marriage rate. The liberal view of sex and marriage have led to many problems. The more traditional view of marriage and sex is better.
Feminism: Total failure. Even many women are against feminism now.
Ban on Liquor: Everyone agrees it should be legal now.
Union labour: Republicans certainly have won many battles against too powerful unions.
Rent Control: Was a complete failure everywhere it got implemented. Only a few liberal strongholds still have it.
Gun Control: Liberals failed so badly on this one, that they stopped campaigning on the issue.

Yes, liberals are in the prosess of winning gay marriage, and as a conservative I am happy to see that. However, you have lost plenty of battles yourself.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:04 PM
 
775 posts, read 691,426 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Conservative means to conserve. As in, conserving things the way they are, or have been.

It is pretty obvious that conservatives basically lose every time there is a change in any policy whatsoever. And not all changes are for the better. I get so tired of hearing about how we need to "move forward". As if every change is a step in the right direction. In my opinion, most of the "moving forward" that we have had in the last 60 years, is really moving backwards.

Always remember, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
So you would rather go back to an era where blacks were forced to sit at the back of the bus, jews were afraid to reveal their faith publicly, and you could be arrested for treason if one suspects you of being a communist? Never mind the regressions in women’s rights, medicines, etc.

Honestly, people who sincerely wish to take society back to anytime before the 70s are racists, whether they are conscious of it or not. “But no, I wasn’t forced to drink at different water fountains, so why should I care?”
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
28,985 posts, read 16,880,056 times
Reputation: 9143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Conservative means to conserve. As in, conserving things the way they are, or have been.

It is pretty obvious that conservatives basically lose every time there is a change in any policy whatsoever. And not all changes are for the better. I get so tired of hearing about how we need to "move forward". As if every change is a step in the right direction. In my opinion, most of the "moving forward" that we have had in the last 60 years, is really moving backwards.

Always remember, the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
Conservatism, as it applies to political conservatives in the US, refers to preserving our personal rights and liberties, not preserving the status quo; unless the status quo is our personal liberty and freedom.

Liberalism in the US seems to be liberating people from taking on the arduous tasks of taking personal responsibility for their own lives, and empowering government to take complete control over our lives, liberating us from all worry and strife, and providing us all with equal outcomes in all things.
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:13 PM
 
775 posts, read 691,426 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Well, if you define conservative as resistance to change,
But that is the dictionary definition of the term, is it not?

Quote:
and we all agree things have gotten better, then of course conservatives where wrong in the past. But not all of the positions that is stated are conservative. For instance the people who were considered conservative back in the days, loved watching Opera and the liberals were mostly in business. That is the exact opposite from today. So, its not entirely fair to look at old history.

However, lets look at modern history. You mentioned
Civil Rights movement
Women Suffrage
Gay Rights

But what about
“But”? It’s as though you brush over some of the most important moral achievements in the history of mankind, as though they were trivial.

Quote:
Traditional marriage: Right wing states have much higher marriage rates. New York is the least happy state, and also the state with the lowest marriage rate. The liberal view of sex and marriage have only led to problems.
I don’t know where you got your statistics from, but mine tell me that red states have the highest divorce rates, and the most teen pregnancies.

Quote:
Feminism: Total failure. Even many women are against feminism now.
Do you realize that woman suffragists were considered to be and self-identified as feminists?

Quote:
Ban on Liquor: Everyone agrees it should be legal now.
But now conservatives have shifted prohibition to the war on drugs, which people think is different for some reason.


Quote:
Union labour: Republicans certainly have won many battles against too powerful unions.
I agree that many Unions have grown to resemble the very corporations they seek to counter, but I don’t think this compares to major liberal achievements in the slightest.

Quote:
Rent Control: Was a complete failure everywhere it got implemented. Only a few liberal strongholds still have it.
Gun Control: Liberals failed so badly on this one, that they stopped campaigning on the issue.
Again, you’re countering some of the most important ideological victories in history with some ambiguous “victories” by the Right.


Quote:
Yes, liberals are in the prosess of winning gay marriage, and as a conservative I am happy to see that. However, you have lost plenty of battles yourself.
Liberals were probably wrong about free silver, and disastrously so on communism. But the latter was hardly ever a mainstream leftist agenda, nor was it very socially liberal. Other than
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:14 PM
 
775 posts, read 691,426 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapasha View Post
Conservatism, as it applies to political conservatives in the US, refers to preserving our personal rights and liberties, not preserving the status quo; unless the status quo is our personal liberty and freedom.
If that were true, the mainstream republican politician would oppose the Patriot Act, support gay marriage, support giving amnesty to illegal immigrants, support legalizing prostitution, oppose the war on drugs and oppose overseas wars.
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