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Old 09-05-2012, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Maryland
628 posts, read 895,221 times
Reputation: 181

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camlon View Post
Feminism: Total failure. Even many women are against feminism now.
What you're seeing is complacency, not failure, from women who have the rights to vote, own property and enter into contracts, get a college education (at a higher rate than men), divorce their husbands, and sue their employers for sex discrimination. (Sounds like success to me)
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:20 PM
 
Location: NJ
19,669 posts, read 14,151,024 times
Reputation: 13777
Liberal vs conservatives is a relative term defined by current politics for strategy advantage. A prejudicial way of dividing up the world.

Could there be any other major divisions?

Most people combine both views on differnt topics.

Germany, Communist take over of Europe by despotic ruthless governments always put the people first dangling divisional politics, registering and then confiscating firearms, persecuting isolated groups that were not an issue to the majority until the take over was complete.

Was hitler consrvative or liberal?

He had a new world order in mind. that doesn't sound like status quo and ventual progress you might think of as conservative.

These larger than life governments knew no bounds to their power as they all initially pretended to help the 'working class'.

You could try to apply liberal vs conservative to the days of US revolution but then you neglect to consider the basic beliefs that were at odds in favor of retroactively applying todays standards to support your political philosophy and to emotionally condem all people who disagree with you. It is always easier to argue with nebulous terms that evoke emotions as logic is useless in such situations.

But you already knew that.
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:24 PM
 
4,168 posts, read 3,333,211 times
Reputation: 2117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
But that is the dictionary definition of the term, is it not?
The dictionary version of the term is BS. For instance Obama want to preserve a lot more than for instance Bachmann, but she calls herself very conservative.

Quote:
“But”? It’s as though you brush over some of the most important moral achievements in the history of mankind, as though they were trivial.
They are not trivial.


Quote:
I don’t know where you got your statistics from, but mine tell me that red states have the highest divorce rates, and the most teen pregnancies.
Your statistics is wrong. They have a higher divorce rate per 1000 people. But not per 1000 marriages. For instance California has a divorce rate of 75%. California Divorce Rate 75 Percent

An important point to remember. The divorce rate among liberals are much higher than conservatives.
http://ozconservative.blogspot.co.nz...ally-have.html

Quote:
Do you realize that woman suffragists were considered to be and self-identified as feminists?
Well, a shame their movement got hijacked so badly that many women have stopped supporting the movement.

Quote:
But now conservatives have shifted prohibition to the war on drugs, which people think is different for some reason.
Liberals were still wrong. Also, most conservatives I have met is not in favour of the war on drugs.


Quote:
Liberals were probably wrong about free silver, and disastrously so on communism. But the latter was hardly ever a mainstream leftist agenda, nor was it very socially liberal.
Never talked about communism. I would have mentioned it if we talked about Europe, but in America communism has never been very popular.

It is right that liberals have gotten some really important achievements, which I am happy to see. But in similar fashion conservatives have gotten major achievements abroad in socialist countries. Just look at Eastern Europe and China. If your country is right historically, then it is easier for the left to make major achievements. And if your country is left, then it is easier for the right to make major achievements.

But I am just pointing out that conservatives do have major achievements as well.
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:26 PM
 
775 posts, read 693,506 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
What part of conservatism says we should round up black people and return them to slavery? You posting garbage, after you post other garbage, doesnt validate your posting as accurate.
Modern conservatism says no such thing, but conservatism did support slavery. Indeed, many conservatives today love to demoan the "good old days" and openly profess a desire to return America to the 1950s, or even earlier. You know, a time when segregation was written law? So either these people are ignorant, racists, idiots, or just don't give a ****.
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
29,461 posts, read 17,067,295 times
Reputation: 9394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
But that is the dictionary definition of the term, is it not?
You cannot slap a lable on "conservative" and lump everyone in one big group, because it depends on the context of what they are trying to preserve.

Stick this in your head, modern day political conservaties in the US want to preserve our Constitutional rights and freedoms. Part of this is to prevent the government from subverting our rights and freedoms. Modern US liberals want the exact opposite thing.
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
29,461 posts, read 17,067,295 times
Reputation: 9394
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
What part of conservatism says we should round up black people and return them to slavery? You posting garbage, after you post other garbage, doesnt validate your posting as accurate.
That is Joe Biden talking. It's an evil thing to say, but he is just fine with that.
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:35 PM
 
4,739 posts, read 4,124,713 times
Reputation: 2484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
Modern conservatism says no such thing, but conservatism did support slavery.

You are saying that all those who supported slavery were conservatives? I just think you are picking the point, and then labeling it. By 1860 Slavery had existed for thousands upon thousands of years. Giving lots of time for both progressives (new world order, one white race would fix everything, slaves are great as long as they aren't race B) or conservatives (economic evidence and the impact of slavery is a negative, therefore we should be against it).


Along the same point, its seem time to unleash Goodwin's law or was it already done?

Wasn't it a new liberal ideal to systematically kill an entire race of people in order to found a new order of better human beings?

Would be stopping this inhumane and morally corrupt act based on conservative principles and a understanding of life?

Liberalism or unconstrained thinking to a better good at its further-est tipping point can be used to justify genocide for the betterment and creation of a new people. Not saying thats what anyone here wants.. but it has happened.


you can mark almost any point in history as a judicious use of Conservatism or liberal policy. You just have to look at it a different way?
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Old 09-05-2012, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Northridge/Porter Ranch, Calif.
23,704 posts, read 30,339,191 times
Reputation: 7239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
I also love how Reagan, like most conservatives, pay lip service to libertarianism, yet contradict it in nearly every way. Reagan actually tripled the deficit, if you recall.
I don't recall that because it's not true. If you are referring to the national debt, it did not triple under Reagan.
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:07 PM
 
4,168 posts, read 3,333,211 times
Reputation: 2117
Quote:
Red States have the most teen pregnancies.
Well, you need to factor in abortion rates. I made a list of pregnancy rate per 1000 women between 15-17 for famous blue and red states.

Red States:
Utah: 24
Alaska: 29
Louisiana: 36
Alabama: 40
Texas: 50


Blue States:
Illinois: 40
California: 42
New York: 47
New Mexico: 58
DC: 113

It does not seem like blue states have lower teen pregnancy rates.

Source: http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/USTPtrends.pdf
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:17 PM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,416 posts, read 18,730,998 times
Reputation: 8949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
Premise 1: Conservatism is defined as the relative support of tradition, of the status quo and opposition to change, while liberalism is opposition to the status quo and support of change.

Premise 2: Democrats were not always liberals, and Republicans were not always conservatives. Remember this now, please.


Revolutionary Era: Liberals fought for independence. Conservatives supported the crown.

  • The origins of the terms "Left" and "Right" in political context comes from the French National Assembly prior to the French Revolution, in which on the left sat revolutionaries and on the right sat monarchists. The first conservatives were monarchists.
  • By definition, he who supports a radical set of ideals listing the rights of all humankind and fights against the establishment is a liberal.
  • By definition, he who supports the traditional governmental system: monarchy, which derives its power from heritage and tradition, is a conservative.
  • The political theorists of what would become our set of inalienable rights: John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison, for example, were intellectuals. Does that sound conservative to you?



Civil War: Liberals opposed slavery and supported women's suffrage. Conservatives fiercely defended slavery and almost destroyed the Union.

  • By definition, he who seeks to upset the status quo (slavery, the patriarchal society) is a liberal, and he who defends it is a conservative
  • Abolitionists were called "radicals" by southerners, and they resided largely in New England, historically a liberal bastion.
  • The short lived offshoot, the Liberal Republican Party -- real name.
  • The movement to end slavery and the movement for women's suffrage were very closely linked. Both of these goals are almost universally supported today, but they were also closely linked with the movement to create government welfare and government regulations.
  • There were very few women's suffragists in the South, a historically conservative location. They were very, very concerned with states' rights and tradition (read: conservative).
  • Basically all confederate sympathizers today are self identified conservatives.





Gilded Age: Empirical proof of the failure of laissez faire economics.



Progressive Era: Few would deny that the Progressives were liberals. They gave women suffrage. They ended child labor. They enacted the first big regulations on corporations that even conservatives today would agree with. Some helped advance civil rights. What did conservatives do? They opposed all of this, tooth and nail.



Civil Rights movement: ...was very liberal.

  • By definition, again, it sought to upset the status quo.
  • MLK Jr was a fervent liberal; I can present video evidence, if you wish, of him stating that the government should spend billions of dollars to combat poverty. Malcom X was obviously a fervent liberal. Indeed, all civil rights leaders were liberals.
  • The primary opposition to the movement came from pro states' rights, pro tradition southern politicians whose demographic support is almost a mirror image of today's republican party.
  • The Civil Rights Act of 1964 gave the federal government power to regulate businesses -- sound conservative to you?
  • The Southern Manifesto, signed by southern politicians in conservative bastions such as Kentucky and Texas, cited strict constitutionalism, states' rights and tradition as arguments.
  • The Warren Court was the most liberal court in our history, and also the most friendly to civil rights.
Gay Rights movement: Many still oppose it to this day. But liberals won victories for gay rights in the right to be gay without going to jail and other liberties that even conservatives today would support.




As you can see, History has gradually shifted towards the left, not only over the American lifespan, but throughout all of civilization as well. If you don't believe me, list your major political stances, and compare them with the conservatives of, say, a century ago.

You'd be considered a leftist socialist loon.

Look at government spending then and now. Look at social programs then and now. Look at gay rights, feminism and civil rights then and now. Look at atheism statistics then and now.

Or, perhaps, you could answer this simple question:

Name one major accomplishment of conservatism.
On all of the above: You're full of crap.
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