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Old 09-04-2012, 02:50 PM
 
775 posts, read 693,441 times
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Premise 1: Conservatism is defined as the relative support of tradition, of the status quo and opposition to change, while liberalism is opposition to the status quo and support of change.

Premise 2: Democrats were not always liberals, and Republicans were not always conservatives. Remember this now, please.


Revolutionary Era: Liberals fought for independence. Conservatives supported the crown.

  • The origins of the terms "Left" and "Right" in political context comes from the French National Assembly prior to the French Revolution, in which on the left sat revolutionaries and on the right sat monarchists. The first conservatives were monarchists.
  • By definition, he who supports a radical set of ideals listing the rights of all humankind and fights against the establishment is a liberal.
  • By definition, he who supports the traditional governmental system: monarchy, which derives its power from heritage and tradition, is a conservative.
  • The political theorists of what would become our set of inalienable rights: John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison, for example, were intellectuals. Does that sound conservative to you?




Civil War: Liberals opposed slavery and supported women's suffrage. Conservatives fiercely defended slavery and almost destroyed the Union.

  • By definition, he who seeks to upset the status quo (slavery, the patriarchal society) is a liberal, and he who defends it is a conservative
  • Abolitionists were called "radicals" by southerners, and they resided largely in New England, historically a liberal bastion.
  • The short lived offshoot, the Liberal Republican Party -- real name.
  • The movement to end slavery and the movement for women's suffrage were very closely linked. Both of these goals are almost universally supported today, but they were also closely linked with the movement to create government welfare and government regulations.
  • There were very few women's suffragists in the South, a historically conservative location. They were very, very concerned with states' rights and tradition (read: conservative).
  • Basically all confederate sympathizers today are self identified conservatives.






Gilded Age: Empirical proof of the failure of laissez faire economics.



Progressive Era: Few would deny that the Progressives were liberals. They gave women suffrage. They ended child labor. They enacted the first big regulations on corporations that even conservatives today would agree with. Some helped advance civil rights. What did conservatives do? They opposed all of this, tooth and nail.



Civil Rights movement: ...was very liberal.

  • By definition, again, it sought to upset the status quo.
  • MLK Jr was a fervent liberal; I can present video evidence, if you wish, of him stating that the government should spend billions of dollars to combat poverty. Malcom X was obviously a fervent liberal. Indeed, all civil rights leaders were liberals.
  • The primary opposition to the movement came from pro states' rights, pro tradition southern politicians whose demographic support is almost a mirror image of today's republican party.
  • The Civil Rights Act of 1964 gave the federal government power to regulate businesses -- sound conservative to you?
  • The Southern Manifesto, signed by southern politicians in conservative bastions such as Kentucky and Texas, cited strict constitutionalism, states' rights and tradition as arguments.
  • The Warren Court was the most liberal court in our history, and also the most friendly to civil rights.
Gay Rights movement: Many still oppose it to this day. But liberals won victories for gay rights in the right to be gay without going to jail and other liberties that even conservatives today would support.




As you can see, History has gradually shifted towards the left, not only over the American lifespan, but throughout all of civilization as well. If you don't believe me, list your major political stances, and compare them with the conservatives of, say, a century ago.

You'd be considered a leftist socialist loon.

Look at government spending then and now. Look at social programs then and now. Look at gay rights, feminism and civil rights then and now. Look at atheism statistics then and now.

Or, perhaps, you could answer this simple question:

Name one major accomplishment of conservatism.
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Old 09-04-2012, 02:59 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,581 posts, read 9,110,417 times
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Premise 1: Conservatism is defined as the relative support of tradition, of the status quo and opposition to change, while liberalism is opposition to the status quo and support of change.

Premise 2: Democrats were not always liberals, and Republicans were not always conservatives.



The silliest threads by the leftist fanatics, always start with lies about the most basic things.

This one is clearly no exception.

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Old 09-04-2012, 03:01 PM
 
775 posts, read 693,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
Premise 1: Conservatism is defined as the relative support of tradition, of the status quo and opposition to change, while liberalism is opposition to the status quo and support of change.

Premise 2: Democrats were not always liberals, and Republicans were not always conservatives.



The silliest threads by the leftist fanatics, always start with lies about the most basic things.

This one is clearly no exception.

Which premise is false?
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Long Island
28,715 posts, read 16,569,929 times
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modern american liberalism......= socialism and fascism mixed together
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Palo Alto
12,152 posts, read 7,832,521 times
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Who cares what happened in 1776? Those guys are dead and buried. Let's talk about the actions of the guy in the White House today....
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Long Island
28,715 posts, read 16,569,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
The political theorists of what would become our set of inalienable rights: John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison, for example, were intellectuals. Does that sound conservative to you?
yes

jefferson was ANTI BIG government

king goerge..a king...BIG governemt under a monarcy
communism/socialism/fascism....BIG government
doictators....totalatarian BIG governmet

jefferson (would today be a (in POLITICAL terms) a conservative) as he OPPOSED big government
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:08 PM
 
775 posts, read 693,441 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperJohn View Post
Who cares what happened in 1776? Those guys are dead and buried. Let's talk about the actions of the guy in the White House today....
Conservatives love to talk about the past, the founding fathers, and "traditional values", so they should put their facts where their mouth is.
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:10 PM
 
17,290 posts, read 27,679,700 times
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Jefferson also wrote about giving away land to people, and providing free education up through the university level so that bright people from not-so-rich families could compete. That kind of talk today would put him.... oh.... about Dennis Kucinich on the political spectrum.

That "provision of opportunity" is the heart of classic liberalism, and the antithesis of social darwinism (which isn't really social darwinism, but more like societally and governmentally sanctioned nepotism) that typifies conservativism today.
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Long Island
28,715 posts, read 16,569,929 times
Reputation: 8012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
Conservatives love to talk about the past, the founding fathers, and "traditional values", so they should put their facts where their mouth is.
Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have. The course of history shows us that as a government grows, liberty decreases."
— Thomas Jefferson


"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
— Thomas Jefferson


"A government afraid of its citizens is a Democracy."
— Thomas Jefferson
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Old 09-04-2012, 03:12 PM
 
775 posts, read 693,441 times
Reputation: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
yes

jefferson was ANTI BIG government
He was a leftist libertarian. Fiscally conservative, but socially very liberal.

Quote:
king goerge..a king...BIG governemt under a monarcy
Monarchy's very existence is based on heritage and tradition. The king is determined by his familial ties. It was defended on the basis of stability and tradition. It was the status quo. It was very conservative.
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