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Here's a serious question for liberals. You like diversity. You respect different cultures. You profess tolerance. To what extent are you willing to tolerate conservative or traditionalist sub-cultures in your midst?
A couple of scenarios:
1. Let's say there was a county in far northern Wisconsin that was majority Catholic and wanted to provide for its residents the full experience of social, cultural, and public Catholicism. The Catholic faith would influence its laws, its civic holidays and festivals, and the education of its youth. The enclave would be willing to pay federal taxes but wishes to be exempt from certain federal laws that infringe on its ability to provide a fully Catholic environment. For instance - developers may want to advertise new homes for sale in exclusively Catholic venues, which is illegal under federal law. The jurisdiction may want to limit its public safety personnel - fire and police services - to men only. The county may want to provide Catholic education to its youth via public schools funded by local taxes. Etc.
Is that something you would tolerate?
2. Suppose the county outlined above somehow managed to do all of this in formal compliance with federal law by setting up what really amounts to a "shadow government". Kind of like the Amish do, very quietly, while paying their taxes and everything.
No. That shouldn't be allowed. You can do those things if you raise your revenue within your religious community , and set up your town on private property. Once you begin raising tax revenue on those not in your religious community that's a whole different situation. You need to leave them out of it. No using government resources to advance your religion.
"You like diversity. You respect different cultures. You profess tolerance."
That is one of several liberal values. It is not the only liberal value.
SO arguments like aren't going to go anywhere. It's like asking, "You seem to like eating every day - would you like to eat your own children?" No - I like eating, and also, I want my children not to be subject to cannibalism. Most of us humans are capable of holding multiple values at once, some of which conflict. And that's not a sign of hypocrisy - it's just the nature of holding conflicting values.
Many liberals value tolerance, and they also value equal protection before the law, and they also value separation of church and state. Those values can conflict. When they do, people have to sort out their priorities on a case-by-case basis.
It's not just liberals, of course - most conservatives seem to claim that they support states rights and even localism, but many also claim to support federal bans on abortion or gay marriage. That's not automatically hypocritical - it just means that you hold some conflicting, possibly incompatible values.
Yes, if they want to keep strictly to themselves the way the Amish do, that's fine with me. In fact, I wish they would. I also am opposed to harassment of FLDS on that basis.
I would think that liberals would tolerate traditionalist conservative sub-cultures only if they would tolerate liberal culture just the same. You know, the Golden Rule, Live and Let Live, etc.?
I would think that liberals would tolerate traditionalist conservative sub-cultures only if they would tolerate liberal culture just the same. You know, the Golden Rule, Live and Let Live, etc.?
That's what I'm wondering. This is just a thought experiment. Personally, I'm not giving up on imposing my values on everyone else just yet.
But suppose we reached a point where the only solution was a "live and let live" scenario as described. We'll leave you alone, you leave us alone. I can see it coming to that. I think a lot of religious conservatives could live with it. Could liberals live with it too?
That's what I'm wondering. This is just a thought experiment. Personally, I'm not giving up on imposing my values on everyone else just yet.
But suppose we reached a point where the only solution was a "live and let live" scenario as described. We'll leave you alone, you leave us alone. I can see it coming to that. I think a lot of religious conservatives could live with it. Could liberals live with it too?
Religious conservatives haven't demonstrated that they could live with liberal culture. Abortion is one example, homosexual marriage is another example.
Religious conservatives haven't demonstrated that they could live with liberal culture. Abortion is one example, homosexual marriage is another example.
That isn't true. Some religious conservatives have "made their peace" with the liberal culture around them and just want to be left alone.
The Amish get away with a lot of political incorrectness for some reason, at least liberals seldom go after them. Is that because they don't try to change anything in the liberal culture around them? I always thought it was because of their pacificism which liberals think is cool.
Other groups have also withdrawn, such as ultra-orthodox Jews, though they have run-ins with secular laws from time to time.
I suspect that liberals are less hostile to these groups because, historically, they have never been dominant or numerically powerful. So they sort of get a "minority" pass. I'm wondering if that tolerance will hold when evangelicals or Catholics decide to "go Amish".
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