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Are you a Muslim or a lapsed Muslim or a Muslim scholar?
You have no idea how foolish you look to me because you don't know anything about me. I'm not going to share with you because I would rather continue having a laugh at your expense.
Read my last post again. Muslims MUST believe in the Quran, or else they are infidels and NOT Muslims.
Read the entire Quran next time or find your own links before you profess to know a thing about Muslims, or risk continuing to appear ignorant. You can then easily answer your own questions.
The irony is breathtaking.
The Q'ran is just as open to interpretation as any text. There's a reason why there are different Islamic sects, and within those groups there are differences of opinion on how to interpret different passages. Muslims must believe, just as Christians must believe. But Catholics believe certain things that Baptists don't, and Baptists believe certain things that Methodists don't. So there are a range of beliefs within Islam, just as there are a range of beliefs within Judaism and a range of beliefs in Christianity. There are no absolutes when it comes to religion, and your assertion that there are puts you at risk of appearing ignorant.
The Q'ran is just as open to interpretation as any text. There's a reason why there are different Islamic sects, and within those groups there are differences of opinion on how to interpret different passages. Muslims must believe, just as Christians must believe. But Catholics believe certain things that Baptists don't, and Baptists believe certain things that Methodists don't. So there are a range of beliefs within Islam, just as there are a range of beliefs within Judaism and a range of beliefs in Christianity. There are no absolutes when it comes to religion, and your assertion that there are puts you at risk of appearing ignorant.
Sorry there is one absolute that all Islamic sects believe the Koran is the literal word from God
Sorry there is one absolute that all Islamic sects believe the Koran is the literal word from God
I'm sorry, but that's untrue. There are some sects that believe the Q'ran to be the literal word of God, and some that believe it is the inspired word of God. A significant portion of the Q'ran is based on the Old Testament. But the Q'ran is still a text that is open to interpretation. Which is why there is disagreement between the various sects, and disagreement within the sects, as to how the Q'ran is interpreted.
It's no different from the disagreements between various Christian sects. And the disagreements can occur on the most basic level. Which is why when my Presbyterian friends got married, both of them children of Presbyterian preachers, that one side of the family thinks it's okay to play cards and dance, and the other side of the family thinks that playing cards and dancing are sins.
That same dichotomy of beliefs will be found when Shiites marry, where one side of the family will believe one thing, and the other side will believe something completely different. Both sides of the Shiite family believe that their beliefs are accurate reflections of the word of God, just as both sides of the Presbyterian family I've described above believe that their beliefs are accurate reflections of the word of God. There are no absolutes when it comes to religious beliefs.
And, because there was no Islamic 'Reformation' (well, nearly 1000 years ago, there was an attempt to use rational observation, but Hellenism was rejected in favor of the belief that the Koran was eternal and must be accepted, literally, with no questions at all), this will continue to be the case. Islam is not just 'another' religion closely resembling Christianity or Judaism. The mind set is totally differently and incompatible with those faiths and Western civilisation.
True very true.
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Originally Posted by plwhit
How long has Islam and Christianity been at war, since 400 BC?
Enough is enough everybody now has the weapons to totally wipe the other side off the face of the Earth.
Lets get it done so we can do away with the TSA.......
Since Cain and Abel.
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Originally Posted by malamute
And what is so very different about Muslims that while Catholics and other Christians have to put up with a crucifix put in a cup of urine being hailed as great art and Obama will have Chrisitans pay for abortions - it all changes when it comes to Muslims -- are we in the submission to Islam phase already?
Because people are afraid to die.
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Originally Posted by FancyFeast5000
First of all Obama is NOT having Christians pay for abortions.
"submission to Islam phase"? No. I think there's a lot of concern about keeping our citizens in the Middle East as safe as possible. Certainly you should be able to see the results of inflaming the situation needlessly. Exactly what was so important about the "movie" that it needed to be made and put up on YouTube? It was a ridiculous, in-your-face effort to start trouble. Also why was it so important for these guys to assert their free speech rights in this manner? The price for their "fun" and ego trip was American lives.
Then we need to pull all American out of other countries.
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Originally Posted by FancyFeast5000
Are you really going to stick with this ^^^?
You obviously have no concern for the Americans serving their country in the Middle East. I usually respect your posts and your positions, even if I don't agree with you. This time I'm surprised.
Like I said we need to pull all Americans out of other countries.
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Originally Posted by EdwardA
And how do you know what they think? Because they smile at you and say nice things?
All we can go by is the stated pronouncements of Islam which presumably as Muslims they support.
Muslims are commanded to lie to the infidels.
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Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
The media didn't translate the movie into Arabic, or post the translated version on youtube two days before 9/11.
The movie had nothing to do with the riots.
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Originally Posted by Bulldawg82
I understand what you are saying, but equating the act of speaking unfavorably of Islam to yelling fire in a theater is a dangerous (and rather revealing) comparison. Why is Islam the only religion that is exempt from criticism? Because we will get them mad and they may/will murder someone? That is extortion, appeasement and the abdication of freedom. If Christians have to put up with Christ in a jar of urine and Buddhists have to put with their holy sites being destroyed (by Muslims), then the Muslims can enjoy the blow back too. To exempt them from this is to play Chamberlain to another Adolph Hitler. Peace with them is only a ruse. There will be no peace.
Very good point.
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Originally Posted by Bulldawg82
I agree with you, but one correction: We didn't get our asses kicked in Vietnam. Our kill ration was well over 10 to 1. We defeated them militarily whenever the opportunity was given. Vietnam was a political failure (from the get-go). The military was handcuffed by politicians and couldn't even engage or advance on the enemy unless given political permission. Our politicians defeated America in that conflict. Otherwise, B-52s would have carpet-bombed North V into submission and we would have had far more boots on the ground to take care of them.
Politicians screw up everything.
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Originally Posted by OICU812
...which is not the same as showing subservience to one, like Obama has done over and over again.
Holding the hand of a 90 year old man, so he does not fall over as you walk together, is not in the same ball park as Obama engaging in obsequious behavior and bowing to one.
Obama or Bush there is a difference, Obama show submissiveness and Bush shows mutual respect.
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Originally Posted by Bulldawg82
The last part is asking for trouble, but it has nothing to do with our American liberties as this was not done an American. Additionally, if Islam wants to be respected and not have people (like the idiots who made this lame film) disrespect Islam - then they need to start doing the same. As egregious as this film is, it pales in comparison to their disrespect. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.
Yes, Tit for Tat.
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Originally Posted by softblueyz
The Quran, as the Torah and Bible, is open to interpretation. It was also written for the times, as was the Bible and the Torah. They are all story books as far as I am concerned. I know a virgin can become pregnant these days, but I find it hard to believe that Mary experienced virginal conception back then, yet many do believe it. It's a matter of what and how much one wants to believe as well as how far one practices one's faith. If there was one true book that held the key to a peaceful society, we would all be living by it.
No we wouldn't there would still be those who rebel.
I've read the Quran and seeing how it was written for the times, I didn't finish it because I did find it to be a bit overboard.
I'm curious as to how you know that ALL Muslims live strictly by the Quran? If it's a book of violence, do ALL Muslims harbor violence and hate? Can you provide links from reliable sources proving what you say, other than links with opinions?
Currently the Islamic faith is divorced from reason (as I said in an earlier post, this happened at the end of the ninth century) and this leads to violent and irrational actions (murdering innocents because one is offended by cartoons, books, films) that make no sense to Westerners. So, while there are some Muslim scholars (Latif Lakhdar and Bassam Tibi for instance) who are trying to bring logos or rationality back to their faith, Muslims in general can't be categorised as 'moderate', 'conservative', etc. but as lapsed or observant. To be an observant Muslim means you must submit to the will and power of Allah. This is defined in the Koran and Mohammed's teachings and is seen as unchanging.
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