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Old 10-05-2012, 09:23 PM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,221 posts, read 12,293,637 times
Reputation: 3554

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiegirlfriend View Post
If I were a wealthy businessman and told my taxes were going to be raised to help redistribute the wealth, I'd close my business and retire! How is that going to help the country?
But they don't and the right wing keep repeating that crap. Their taxes have been so low for the last ten or so years that they have made money hands over fists and if their taxes go up they will still make money because there will be more people (middle class) with money to buy more of the crap that they sell


Come to think of it how would retiring prematurely help you? All that will happen is that someone else will pick up where you left off. Even if you provided a service that no one else did you still would make a profit
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:29 PM
 
1,520 posts, read 1,869,899 times
Reputation: 545
Quote:
Originally Posted by Okiegirlfriend View Post
If I were a wealthy businessman and told my taxes were going to be raised to help redistribute the wealth, I'd close my business and retire! How is that going to help the country?
Oh, I see, Your business if profitable and because your taxes went up on the gobs of cash you are raking in, you are now going to close your business and retire. Right. That sounds like what a logical business owner would do. He would not SELL the profitable business or pass it to his kids. No he would say "well I made 400,000 dollars this year but because my taxes went up to what I had to pay when Bill Clinton was in office, I am just gonna close this business down, disconnect the phones, fire all my employees and board the damn place up". Right.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:20 AM
 
Location: Western North Carolina
8,012 posts, read 10,589,775 times
Reputation: 18833
The Job Creaters are we, the consumers. Polticians do not create jobs. Demand for goods and services creates jobs. I cringe every time I hear that line. I've been working since the Reagan era. I see absolutely no evidence that cutting taxes for wealthy people "creates" jobs for average American citizens. Manufacturing of goods that are in demand creates real jobs, both blue and white collar. We have given those jobs to other countries which has created wealth for a few. Meanwhile here, our average wages have stagnated for decades as the cost of living has grown, and most of us have litte disposable income to spend for goods and services, unless we can borrow it. That is why more jobs are not being created.
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia Area
1,720 posts, read 1,313,135 times
Reputation: 1353
More idiocy!!!

DEMAND creates jobs NOT "Job Creators". DEMAND!

In order to create demand people need the wages to supply demand.

Are people going to start walking around the streets with drool dripping from their mouths?

The economy is doing GREAT! Unemployment is down says the government!

We're in a recovery!!!!


Nick Hanauer- Inequality and Job Creators (Rejected TED talk) - YouTube
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:31 AM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,221 posts, read 12,293,637 times
Reputation: 3554
It is truely amazing that people actually believe the same crap that ronnie was saying in the 80's even if it did not work than and it still won't work now. All that they did was change the name of the wealthy to "job creators".
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Old 10-08-2012, 02:06 AM
 
4,078 posts, read 5,400,248 times
Reputation: 4958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swazi Spring View Post
One of my liberal friends just sent me this. Thoughts? Rebuttals?

Needless to say, I'm skeptical of the validity of any Facebook picture.
So the poor are left to pay a disproportionate amount while they become extorted?

From a fiscally libertarian perspective, you wouldn't mind if our country reverted to 3rd world capitalism, right?

Right.
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Old 10-08-2012, 03:02 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia Area
1,720 posts, read 1,313,135 times
Reputation: 1353
Quote:
Originally Posted by CK78 View Post
More idiocy!!!

DEMAND creates jobs NOT "Job Creators". DEMAND!

In order to create demand people need the wages to supply demand.

Are people going to start walking around the streets with drool dripping from their mouths?

The economy is doing GREAT! Unemployment is down says the government!

We're in a recovery!!!!


Nick Hanauer- Inequality and Job Creators (Rejected TED talk) - YouTube
http://www.newpeopleorder.com/index.html
Amazon.com: They Own It All (Including You)!: By Means of Toxic Currency (9781439233610): Ronald MacDonald, Robert Rowen: Books#_

They Own It ALL(Including YOU!)By Means of Toxic Currency
by Ronald MacDonald, Robert Rowen

"I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England to rule the Empire,... The man that controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire. And I control the money supply"

Baron Nathan Mayer Rothschild, of the Rothschild international banking cartel

Originally Posted by the_windwalker
Original Post: //www.city-data.com/forum/21850164-post120.html

"One more area to look at, and this is from my own experience. In 1965 and 1966, I was making $8,000 a year. I was also paying 17 cents a gallon for gasoline. Just today, the current price of gasoline at the corner gas station at the corner is $3.599. To maintain the ratio between income and the cost of gasoline, today's average income should be about $170,000 a year.

In 1973, I was making $14,000 a year, and paying $51 every six months for car insurance. (And, supporting a wife and two kids, while buying a house for $10,000) The last premium I paid on car insurance came out to $147 a month. Back in 1973, the monthly cost was just $8.50. To maintain the ratio of income to car insurance premiums, today's average income should be about $240,000 a year. Want to check with IRS and see just how many "Average Americans" are actually making that much? And, the story is the same no matter what area of expense you look at, groceries, utilities, housing, etc.

That is what is "INCOME INEQUITY". What to do about it is the "$64,000 question". Solutions are sure to be as varied as the people that offer them, but now, you should be able to come up with a better informed opinion.

Now, with regard to the quote, by all means, give your kids every advantage you can. Stress education. Any kind of court record will hurt their chances for a successful career. But, keep in mind...

Let's say that 99% of the next generation gets a master's degree. (No, I don't think that's realistic) It's also not realistic to think that every one of them will get jobs where they will use that degree. There will be a number of them serving at Pizza Hut. A good education and a clean record does not give them a guarantee, but it does improve their chances at a comfortable life." (end quote)


My anecdotes collection is meant to show in a very concrete way the wage stagflation or really deflation experienced for the bottom 80-90 percent of workers the last 30-40 years. I submit only the top 1- 20% percent of wage earners has kept up with cost inflation. That's 2 in 10 workers, certainly NOT middle class, and I think 20% is pushing it. More like the top 10%.

Keep in mind when you read these anecdotes and watch Dr. Warren's lecture think RATIOS. That's exactly my point. For example: "In 1973, I was making $14,000 a year, and paying $51 every six months for car insurance. (And, supporting a wife and two kids, while buying a house for $10,000). How many people now make 40% more IN ONE YEAR than the value of their HOME!!!! GuyNTexas' anecdote illustrates this point very well also.

Read more: Income Inequality: What To Do About It?

Originally Posted by workingclasshero
Original post:
//www.city-data.com/forum/15893673-post369.html

"so what does that make ...heck the MINIIMUM salery for the WORST player in the NFL is 310k...are you SERIOUSLY going to call a benchwarmer rich????


I'm sure a guy making 400k will say he is poor complared to bill gates and his BILLIONS...or the millioniares like John Kerry

250k is almost the median price of a house....NATIONWIDE......the median in the northeast is 260k...... http://www.realestateabc.com/outlook/overall.htm

just because SALARIES havent kept up with INFLATION doesnt mean we should still CLASSIFY based on 1955/1965 numbers.......average salary in 1966..6900...median house price 14k....about 50% right...use those numbers compared to the meadin house....the median salary SHOULD be 130k...not 50k

sorry but this is not 1955 , when 250k was rich...please get with the times...its 2010"(end quote)


Here is the_windwalkers explanation to a reply:
Original Post:
//www.city-data.com/forum/21850961-post142.html

"The "inequity" comes in where the expenses have out-paced the income for the average American. While EVERYTHING ELSE has gone up, income for the "middle-class" has stagnated over the last fifty years. That is the problem with the economy today. The "middle-class", the MAJORITY of Americans do not have enough money to keep the economy flowing. Inequity = DIS-PROPORTIONATE".

Show me just one exec whose decisions are actually worth a million dollars a day. Even just a thousand dollars a day. Think about it. As great as he was, even Steve Jobs is now replaced. And, as great as he was for the company, he was not that great for America. Look where your Apple product is made. American jobs?

Ever hear of "The Law of Diminishing Returns"? Keep raising your prices, and eventually, you'll price yourself out of business. That is what Corporate America has done. They have priced the economy out of business.

Take a look at the cost of a kit to put a motor on a bicycle. A 50 CC kit has gone up nearly $100 because of the demand. They're replacing cars with motorized bicycles and scooters. And, the auto industry isn't doing as well as they were ten years ago.

If a cashier is being paid exactly what they are worth, then we're paying far more for everything than it's worth. Gasoline isn't worth $3.599 a gallon. Why are we paying that much? Car insurance is not worth what we're paying. Why are we paying it?"(end quote)



Withou further ado here's the rest of the collection. In my opinion no one who is honest, can think critically and do math can deny what's contained herein:

Pay close attention to the years in the following posts of people who lived in the mid 70's-early 80's:

Quote:
Originally Posted by padcrasher Original Post:
//www.city-data.com/forum/21049746-post9.html

"Sad. I made $9 an hour during the Summer break in the mid 1980s running telephone lines in office buildings. It was a horrible low paying job then. You know what $9 is worth today adjusted for inflation since 1985. $4.42 cents. That same job today would be need to pay $18.50 per hour. If you have no perspective on how things suck..you'll settle for anything. The USA will look like these ghettos in Brazil before people wake up to this right wing propaganda they've been spoon fed for 30 years."(end quote)

"You know what $9 is worth today adjusted for inflation since 1985. $4.42 cents."

Maybe not even that much.

Originally Posted by wawaweewa
Original Post: //www.city-data.com/forum/19747215-post241.html

"Just because things were better, doesn't mean they were great. I don't deny that there were folks like yourself. Nevertheless, more opportunity (on average) did exist back then.

During college I worked part time at a warehouse. One of my co workers was a Guyanese who came into the US illegally in '77 or '78 (he later received amnesty under Reagan). He used to tell me how his first job, as an illegal, paid $10.50/hour. In 2006, after he was laid off from a warehouse making 33/hour, we were working for $12/hr. $10.50 in '78 or 12 in 2006. Inflation much?"(end quote)


Originally Posted by workingclasshero:
Original Post:
//www.city-data.com/forum/18639961-post118.html

"it doesnt

its becoming harder to afford many things for all people

a personal example...I make about 3 times what my father made at his highest level...and it is tougher for me to make ends meet that it was for him

look at the price of a car...a midsize chevy (say the nova) in 1970 was $2200.....today a midsize chevy is 20k or more

the value of the dollar is in the toilet"(end quote)

Yep!!!!! And going lower. Wait till QE3 LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea:
Original Post: //www.city-data.com/forum/15645787-post5.html

"Also the wages aren't there and if you compare that with inflation it just doesn't work.

In 1980, I had an entry level job as a sound engineer with a local independent TV station earning $5.00 per hour. One paycheck paid my rent and utilities and auto insurance and the other 3 paychecks each month were disposable income.

An entry level job today pays $8.50 to $10 per hour and even at $10 per hour it takes 2 paychecks to cover the cost of rent, utilities and auto insurance (and don't forget in 1980 $10 -- or two hours of work -- paid for 2 tickets to the cinema show, a tank full of gasoline and something to eat after the movie -- the cost of two movie tickets now is over $20)."
(end quote)

Originally Posted by PullMyFinger:
Original Post: I have jobs but no one wants them

"The guy is a typical, narrow minded moron who probably has a picture of Reagan on his wall and NOBAMA stickers on his car. He really thinks in this world, with gas being $3.50 per gallon and food twice what it was 5 years ago that $8.50 per hour is "competitive" How friggin stupid can anyone be? I was making more than that in 1981 in a part time job. I started out at $14.00 per hour in 1984 when I bought my first house for $42,000!

He has NO RESPECT for his employees. None.(end quote)

GuyNTexas says IT ALL Here!!!!

Originally Posted by GuyNTexas:
Original Post: //www.city-data.com/forum/15876838-post225.html

"No. I'm really disagreeing with .. not missing your point. And those numbers don't tell a very accurate story, and the proof is demonstrated by the drop in net worth of middle income earners as their debt has increased significantly, while earnings have declined relative to inflation.

By most measurable data points, the middle income class has been dying a very slow, incremental death for 4 decades because the costs on high ticket items have increased more rapidly than the either the inflation rate or rates of increases in income. To further compound the problem, average income levels have failed to keep pace with the inflation rate itself. Much of this goes unnoticed because of it's slow incremental nature (like growing old). But if you are old enough, and still maintain your mental faculties, you can't be bull $hted into believing what you are trying to say here.

As just one example, in 1977, I bought a brand new Pontiac Trans Am for $5200. And since it was my first car purchase, I suspect I was clubbed like a baby seal (paid full MSRP), as I simply asked how much, and said OK (later I learned the error of this way to purchase automobiles )

Now today, that car is no longer available, but a comparable car "Chevy Camero SS" is. And a similarly configured model is around $35,000 MSRP. Which is almost double the adjusted for inflation number of $18,700 that Camero should cost relative to the $5200 Trans Am of 1977.

My income back then was 14,000 or just shy of 3 times what the car cost ... if you apply that same formula to the $35,000 Camero today, I'd have to earn roughly $100,000 per year to maintain the same standard (drive the same car) as my $14,000 income provided then. I was not wealthy then .. I was a 20 year old working in a warehouse driving a forklift. And I don't think there are many 6 figure forklift drivers around today ... I would say, the 40-50K range would be the upper limit ... or roughly the same as my $14,000 would be, adjusted for inflation.

This is one example, and almost any big item ... car, house, etc. works out to be the same. Some other items like Healthcare have dramatically exceeded those rates exponentially compared to 1977 where mine was absolutely free and first rate, including dental.

Now, add to this the higher taxes, social security withholding, and medicare ... all of which have exceeded the inflation rate (and don't let anyone BS you into believing it hasn't), means that the net spending power of your income has declined dramatically over the past 30+ years. (See video below she documents ALL this IN DETAIL)

Now around about that same time frame, my step father worked for one of the US Government agencies earning roughly in the 50-60K range, and at the time, that was very good money, but not even close to RICH & Wealthy .... but adjusted for inflation, that comes out to around $200+K now. The house he purchased then at $50,000 appraised for $480,000 in 2004-5 even though the adjusted for inflation value would have only dictated a $155,000 figure ... 3 times the inflation rate!! By the time he retired in the late 90's, his income may have doubled, yet his house increased by 6-8 fold. What does that tell you?

Now if you are following me here ... this is where it gets real hairy ... if you take a Quarter ... 25 cents ... from say 1964 (the last 90% silver Quarter) that 25 cents equates to $1.76 in 2010 value. But guess what? Today's melt value of that sliver quarter is about $3.70 which is again more than double the published inflation rate ....

So what does that all mean? It means very simply, that the value of your money is worth about half of what it's claimed to be worth, even after being adjusted for inflation .... and all it takes is to actually look at the historical costs of items like cars, and houses and health care costs from the late 60's to today, and also the median incomes. You see that the purchasing power has indeed declined. And this is a result of the devaluation of the currency (a hidden tax).

So when it comes to buying power, there has been a continuous decline that doubles the the inflation rates admitted .. which is why the middle class really doesn't exist for all practical purposes today.

There are the ultra wealthy, and the rest. The $250kers are just at the higher end of that rest of us, and they are the last of the upper middle class, and the next in line to fall ... apparently, much to delight of many who think that they are members of the Wealthy Club, and must fall for the sake of everyone.

I suppose this proves that indeed, misery loves company."(end quote)


Jill61 gets a spot for this post: //www.city-data.com/forum/22419669-post48.html



YouTube - The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class


Read more: Marc Faber says Americans need to work more for lower salaries...

This documentary EXPLAINS IT ALL:

I know the videos take 4 hours to watch but consider this a mini course of how we got here!



The Money Masters - Full - YouTube

Watch this:



A TED Talk on Income Inequality by Nick Hanauer - YouTube

Median income for a household should be almost $100,000 not $52,000.

This country is experiencing a shift in downward class migration. Here's an illustration:



The Real Story Behind Downward Class Migration - YouTube

Read more: I have jobs but no one wants them

Read more: //www.city-data.com/forum/polit...#ixzz26MvexLcs

Read more: //www.city-data.com/forum/polit...#ixzz28hDEfPxN
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Old 10-08-2012, 05:20 AM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,221 posts, read 12,293,637 times
Reputation: 3554
We are headintg towards serfdom
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