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Libertarians say tax is theft, but they support the free market. What they fail to realize is that the free market runs on one principle: Profit. Profit is theoretically theft. According to natural law, to exceed income to expenditure, is a form of gimmick. This could be regarded as theft.
You can't have it both ways.
This isn't the Comedy forum!!!
BTW, profit is earned voluntarily - given to the earner by people who want to exchange it for something of value to them. No force, no coercian, no theft.
that depends, are wa talking about section 8 housing? a friend of mine has three houses he rents out. he does NOT accept section 8 housing, and he does about 90% of the work on the houses himself. so tell me, do you think he EARNS the rents he receives?
The market is unfree because Americans generally do not have the right to buy and sell real estate in increments of mutual agreement.
For example, I have done the math and determined that all I can afford is a 400 sf house on a 2,500 sf piece of land. But that is illegal outside of rural areas, since 2,500 sf does not meet minimum lot size requirements.
This unfree market keeps many renters involuntarily renting, i.e. in rent slavery. This is how government redistributes income from renters to landlords.
Section 8 is government redistributing income from taxpayers to renters and landlords. Renters get subsidized housing and landlords get subsidies beyond what they would get in a free market.
The market is unfree because Americans generally do not have the right to buy and sell real estate in increments of mutual agreement.
For example, I have done the math and determined that all I can afford is a 400 sf house on a 2,500 sf piece of land. But that is illegal outside of rural areas, since 2,500 sf does not meet minimum lot size requirements.
This unfree market keeps many renters involuntarily renting, i.e. in rent slavery. This is how government redistributes income from renters to landlords.
Section 8 is government redistributing income from taxpayers to renters and landlords. Renters get subsidized housing and landlords get subsidies beyond what they would get in a free market.
Maybe you should move to a place where housing is more affordable.
recognizing the fact that taxation is necessary to run a government, most, if not ALL of the jobs you two listed can be easily privatized rather than left to the government to run. in fact construction workers ARE employed by PRIVATE companies, and NOT government.
and how many private schools are around these days? and what about firefighters? we dont have to have the fire department run by the government, there are many private fire companies around, rual metro here in the tucson area is one such private fire company.
I am all for anarchy. However, you need to decentralize Washington D.C. first and stop voting for people. We can also privatize the military, the water supply, the sewer systems, the roads, etc.
What is your point?
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if government were to actually live within their means, and not spend money they dont have and expect the people to pay, then the people wouldnt complain as much about government cost and taxes like we do. and as others have indicated, there is rarely an option for consumers. you get go down the street to the "other" city of tucson government for instance.
Spending on teachers, policemen, and firefighters is not what got us into this debt problem.If you want to abolish the government and/or rail against unrestrained spending, at least be honest about it. Why do you need to blatantly lie? Where does this pathology stem from?
I am all for your little city of Tuscon to succeed from the Republic and privatize itself. Knock yourself out and be fiscally responsible about it. In fact, I would vote to to subsidize the secession of Arizona. You have my blessings.
businesses earn profit, government does NOT earn taxes.
Moreover, those who engage in financial transactions in which profits are earned do so voluntarily.
Sex between consenting adults isn't rape, though liberals are quick to call it such. On the other hand, anal intercourse between Roman Polanski and a heavily drugged thirteen-year-old isn't "rape-rape" according to liberal Whoopi Goldberg and the rest of the liberal cackling hens on The View.
It's no wonder leftists fail to understand the difference between taxes and profits.
It has been tried before. Maurice Bessnger, A BBQ magnate, sued nine businesses because they quit carrying his BBQ sauce after he built a $3 milllion plant to bottle it. Bessinger is a notorious racist, and his customers were worried about being tarred with the same brush.
Libertarians say tax is theft, but they support the free market. What they fail to realize is that the free market runs on one principle: Profit. Profit is theoretically theft. According to natural law, to exceed income to expenditure, is a form of gimmick. This could be regarded as theft.
You can't have it both ways.
Corporate "profit" is theft if the corporation recieved tax breaks, subsidies, bailouts with taxpayer money and also if the corporation uses it's power and lobbyists to manipulate politicians and have laws created that indirectly give their company and/or industry any type of monopoly.
For that corporation to turn around at the end of the year and make a "profit" and then claim that it belongs to the company is absolute theft considering the circumstances that enabled it to make a profit.
I am all for anarchy. However, you need to decentralize Washington D.C. first and stop voting for people. We can also privatize the military, the water supply, the sewer systems, the roads, etc.
What is your point?
my point was that just about everything that government does can be privatized thus eliminating massive amounts of government spending, and thus eliminating a huge amount of taxes being paid by the people.
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Spending on teachers, policemen, and firefighters is not what got us into this debt problem.If you want to abolish the government and/or rail against unrestrained spending, at least be honest about it. Why do you need to blatantly lie? Where does this pathology stem from?
ok so where in my posts have i EVER indicated that spending on teachers, police, firefighters, got us into a debt problem? you are trying, and failing, to put thoughts into my posts that are just not there. also where have i EVER indicated abolishing government? i have ALWAYS recognized the need for proper regulation and oversight of private industry. i also dont mind taxes being paid to provide a police department, and a fire department through government as it cuts down on the number of checks that need to be written every month. imagine the load on the post office if 100,000,000 households were sending premium checks through the mail for every service now provided by government.
i do however rail against excessive government spending in regards to constantly extending unemployment benefits, welfare, and many other government give away programs just so politicians can buy votes to stay in power. i also object to the massive waste in government as well. for instance there are something like 15 different agencies that have regulatory control over the food supply in this country. do we really need 15? why cant we cut that down to something more like 3-4 at most and eliminate massive amounts of bureaucracy? same with welfare. why do we have something like 50 different welfare programs at the federal level? why not condense them down to again 3-4 programs, and again eliminate massive amounts of bureaucracy.
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I am all for your little city of Tuscon to succeed from the Republic and privatize itself. Knock yourself out and be fiscally responsible about it. In fact, I would vote to to subsidize the secession of Arizona. You have my blessings.
Libertarians say tax is theft, but they support the free market. What they fail to realize is that the free market runs on one principle: Profit. Profit is theoretically theft. According to natural law, to exceed income to expenditure, is a form of gimmick. This could be regarded as theft.
You can't have it both ways.
You can argue anything in theory
And no, "gimmick" is not theft. The principle of money in general is "theft" because all wealth and currency is perceived. But at least a company doesn't take your money by FORCE.
I feel sorry for you, because for every smart person who votes, there's like 5 morons who get to vote, too. I think we can all see where that's headed eventually.
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Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
You're not understanding what I'm saying.
Then avoid speaking gibberish in circles.
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Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
You guys should study Marx.
I have studied Marx -- in both the English and German languages, plus I drove by his childhood home frequently (I used to live in Schönenberg-Kübelberg -- a river runs through it -- it's like Minneapolis-St Paul only different).
Monkeys can study Marx -- they just don't understand it.
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Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
Interest is theft.
Interest is the price/cost of borrowing money.
You've yet to grasp the reality that there is nothing "free."
If I have $100,000 to loan, why should I loan it to you for free, when others are willing to pay me for the ability to use my money?
All economics systems -- the Free Market, Command and Traditional (Capitalism, Socialism and Communism are NOT economic systems) -- provide some means of addressing issues of scarcity. When the Demand for Credit exceeds the Supply of Credit, then the Price of Credit increases, which is why interest rates rise....
Unless you're employing a Command (Soviet-style) Economic System where you dictate the price of credit, like Student Loans -- since the government sets the interest rates and not the Market and worse than that, sets interest rates below Market value.
How's that working out for everyone?
As I recall, less-than-Market rates resulted in rapidly rising tuition rates, and since interest rates are one of the Checks & Balances against Scarcity, you have now flooded the job market to the point that 1-in-4 or 25% of all working Americans have a college degree.....
...compared to Europe, where, um, (snicker), you know, (ROFL) education, is, uh, FREE (LMAO) yet not more than 1-in-20 or 5% of Europeans have degrees.
Here's your proof...straight from the OECD
And you're going to be the first to volunteer your time to do the books for the banks for free......right?
How do you think banks pay their employees? They collect interest on loans they make. The interest collected on loans pays for things like, you know, security, maintaining the computer system, paying the rent, paying electric, paying for heating, paying benefits to bank employees...etc. etc. etc.
You might try thinking before posting.
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Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
Again, how is the profit margin not a gimmick?
Okay, I was wrong by calling it theft, but isn't it a gimmick?
What if the price of fuel and raw/semi-finished materials rises?
You'd have to raise your prices or lose money. Profits do many things, including providing some working room with price changes in the market. Profit also allows you to give employees pay raises and/or increase their non-cash compensation; plus profit allows you to recapitalize and upgrade your machinery and equipment, train your employees to operate that machinery and equipment, and expand your operation to increase production.
Sponsor charity events for the benefit of others. Lots of things profit can do. I could talk about profit all day long.
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Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
Libertarians say tax is theft, but they support the free market. What they fail to realize is that the free market runs on one principle: Profit. Profit is theoretically theft. According to natural law, to exceed income to expenditure, is a form of gimmick. This could be regarded as theft.
You can't have it both ways.
That has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read on C-D in a long time (about 20 minutes).
Honestly, I don't know anything about Libertarians, except I have to believe they're more intelligent than you.
There is no "natural law" that claims exceeding income to expenditure is a gimmick, and to the extent that their might be, Economic Law trumps Natural Law, and Economic Law says profit is not a gimmick.
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Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
But how is that fair to consumers?
(Sigh)...some days I think it's pointless.
As a consumer, do you not want the highest possible quality? Do you not want the greatest level of safety in any product you use or consume?
I make meat products. The profits I get from the sale of meat products to consumers allows me to do my own independent research and find ways to increase the level of sanitation and further reduce the chances of contamination by E. Coli, Listeria and Salmonella (among things).
It allows me to do my own product development to give customers and alternative to meat products, or a greater variety of meat products, or to store meat products better. It allows me to research, develop and test better packaging so that meat products can be stored safer for longer periods of time without the need for chemical additives or preservatives.
Profits allow me to do my own independent research and development to enhance the safety of products, so that there's less chance consumers injure themselves, or that consumers could use products in an harmful way.
I need profits to do those things.
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Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
How can one survive without spending money?
Taxes benefit society as a whole. You see a return.
Prove it. Don't talk, show numbers.
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Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
Whether you want to bring up economic theories or not, the fact still remains that profit is theft.
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Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
Creating a profit margin is theft because you are expecting more in revenue than what it cost you to produce. That's duping someone. I'm not saying I'm against profit. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of those who label taxation theft when they have no problem with the profit motive.
You would do well to get hold of a judge's bench book.
All crimes have Elements of Proof and a showing of each is necessary to obtain a conviction.
One of the Elements of Proof for Theft is that you as prosecutor must show that the owner did not consent.
Since a consumer consents to paying the purchase price, you cannot prove Theft.
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Originally Posted by knowledgeiskey
It costs Nike a fraction to produce and distribute a pair of sneakers for what it prices in the market place.
Is that fair?
Yes.
The base price of any product or service is all costs plus margin. The Market vis-a-vis Supply & Demand does the rest.
I'm guessing it would be totally futile to bring up concepts like Price Elasticity.
So when, if ever, do you plan to live up to your moniker?
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And this wage *must* be depressed lower than the full value of their work otherwise profit could not exist.
You don't see the fatal flaw in the nonsense foisted by the idiot?
If you want to impress people, debunk Timmy-boy's silly claim.
Economically...
Mircea
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