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Old 10-10-2007, 02:23 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,962,256 times
Reputation: 1849

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[quote=tinasgt2005;1700455]
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
furthermore, Im not sure everyone realizes that these African American clubs directly stem from originally being denied membership to so many unlabeled Caucasian American clubs; including govt. offices. African Americans established their own clubs AFTER being excluded from the clubs of other ethnic groups. And while those clubs may not have been titled "the whites only club", any loon could see that they did not intend to include different ethnicities, as evident by their actions.

As these clubs existed and continued to develop different chapters, until the time that "traditional" clubs became open to members of varying ethnicities, the members of those "African American" clubs had already developed kinships and relationships within their respective clubs. Were they to dissolve the tradition that they had started after being barred from the "ethnically nuetral" clubs, simply because they were finally being allowed access?

Please note, that titles such as BET did not stem from African Americans excluding whites from their media channels but rather the media, which was at the time, largely controlled by whites excluding African Americans. Just food for thought.[/QUOTE

I disagree with you on the BET issue. BET has only been around for maybe 10 years. There was not a discrimination issue at that time. I would think If White Media had excluded African American people then we would have seen huge lawsuits and the ACLU come in. BET, Ebony magazine, Black music channels. These were created for black people. Not for all people. Just like the clubs. The clubs were created for Black, Mexican, etc. Of course they have to say that all people are included but that is not why they were originally created.

I disagree on the basis that BET, Ebony, Jet were created with blacks in mind, but not specifically FOR blacks. They originated as a result of blacks being largely EXCLUDED from more prominent white operated media outlets. Media outlets such as BET & others were created so that they could portray blacks in the manner that blacks thought they should be portrayed at the time. I dont mean to stray too far off topic. But I think it is really important to realize that these African-American operated media establishments arose as a method of circumventing unequal access to traditional media outlets in the first place.

 
Old 10-10-2007, 02:24 PM
 
1,011 posts, read 3,090,135 times
Reputation: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by PApisces View Post
you have GOT to be joking! Us white Americans bend and cow-tow to every perceived minority group in this country! If we don't, we're branded racists!

Just look at the so called "Jena 6" or as I like to call them, juvenile delinquints. THEY started the fight by demanding to "take the white guys tree"; They made a great big production of it and unfortunately got the result that they wanted.

then SIX of them went and beat the hell out of the white guy. But, WE are racist and run the country, right? Not to mention Affirmative action, the NAACP, and on and on and on.

It's about time for all of the "oppressed" people in this country to consider trying PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY as a means of bettering themselves; There is WAY too much attitude of entitlement nowadays.

I say go ahead and start a Caucasian Club! Don't get too excited though, we'll be forced to integrate it soon enough.
Just stop before you embarrass yourself.

You obviously have very grasp of what you're attempting to speak about here.
 
Old 10-10-2007, 02:33 PM
 
Location: California
236 posts, read 441,566 times
Reputation: 229
[quote=solytaire;1701164]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinasgt2005 View Post


I disagree on the basis that BET, Ebony, Jet were created with blacks in mind, but not specifically FOR blacks. They originated as a result of blacks being largely EXCLUDED from more prominent white operated media outlets. Media outlets such as BET & others were created so that they could portray blacks in the manner that blacks thought they should be portrayed at the time. I dont mean to stray too far off topic. But I think it is really important to realize that these African-American operated media establishments arose as a method of circumventing unequal access to traditional media outlets in the first place.
Believe it or not I knew what you meant. I did not have facts and I am not to proud to admit when I am wrong.
 
Old 10-10-2007, 02:44 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,962,256 times
Reputation: 1849
Quote:
Originally Posted by PApisces View Post
you have GOT to be joking! Us white Americans bend and cow-tow to every perceived minority group in this country! If we don't, we're branded racists!

Just look at the so called "Jena 6" or as I like to call them, juvenile delinquints. THEY started the fight by demanding to "take the white guys tree"; They made a great big production of it and unfortunately got the result that they wanted.

then SIX of them went and beat the hell out of the white guy. But, WE are racist and run the country, right? Not to mention Affirmative action, the NAACP, and on and on and on.

It's about time for all of the "oppressed" people in this country to consider trying PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY as a means of bettering themselves; There is WAY too much attitude of entitlement nowadays.

I say go ahead and start a Caucasian Club! Don't get too excited though, we'll be forced to integrate it soon enough.
I agree...whites, particularly white males, have put themselves in the uneasy predicament of feeling indebted to rectify every ill, committed against every ethnic/minority group in America. Notice I said "put themselves". Because white males have always maintained sole possession of the most important & powerful governing bodies. As such, it seems to some minorities that they inherently bear the responsibility of improving the living conditions of those minorities. (speaking in generalities of course, as Clarence Thomas, Colin Powell, Condileeza Rice, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton & Alberto Gonzoles, do not represent the majority of Govt. officials.) The reason whites have bent over backwards, here very recently, to kow tow to minorities in America, is because whites control most of media and govt. These are the two most important entities in society. However the ancestors of many whites in America obtained control over those entities early, often times at the cost of other less fortunate "Americans". And you have certain groups who are now asking to share the wealth or at very least, the contentment.

Understand that this is no attempt to demonize one particular ethnic group over another. Nor is it an attempt to put any one group on a guilt trip of any sort, as no one alive in the U.S. has committed enslavement, nor has anyone been enslaved. But the controversy arises from the fact that one class or group of people were the benificiaries while other groups were the benefactors, who have ONLY seen the benefits AND the many demerits of their sacrifices, still generations later. The other problem arises when you speak of whites whose ancestors migrated to the U.S. after WW2 or after Brown vs. Board of Education or after Jim Crow laws were abolished. Their ancestors committed no malice against any other ethnic group and were often part of the poor underclass themselves. Yet that is seldom acknowledged.


I personally do not feel anyone owes me anything. But I do think whoever owns the majority in America should be cognizant of the methodology they implimented to procure power/control over the laws of the land; and how those methods may have affected other groups and minorities even still today.

And on a smaller tangent, the anti-affirmative action arguement holds about as much validity as the anti-BET, though I personally do not believe in affirmative action. One thing I think needs to be made clear, is that: Simply because you don't officially label a certain pattern of hiring practices "Affirmative Action for white protestant males" does not mean that affirmative action started when minorities proposed it. Affirmative action has been the program for centuries before now in America, but it stood without title. And understandably so. I mean every race of people is drawn to their own, which does not necessarily mean they automatically dislike other races. I could be wrong but this is just my perspective.

Last edited by solytaire; 10-10-2007 at 03:43 PM..
 
Old 10-10-2007, 02:45 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,962,256 times
Reputation: 1849
[quote=tinasgt2005;1701266]
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post

Believe it or not I knew what you meant. I did not have facts and I am not to proud to admit when I am wrong.
very cool, I can admit when Im wrong too, so when I am just call me on it and Ill fess up....either that or I will stalk you and belligerently yell in your face in public like a lunatic...lol j/k
 
Old 10-10-2007, 02:48 PM
 
457 posts, read 429,388 times
Reputation: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorless View Post
Just stop before you embarrass yourself.

You obviously have very grasp of what you're attempting to speak about here.
Wait a minute. You are saying that because I am white I am not qualified to say whether or not I am affected by the very obvious reverse discrimination?

Would you like 100 examples or would just a few suffice?

1. Affirmative Action (in general)
a. In schools/colleges
b. In the work place

2. United Negro college fund. Could I please apply for funding or would you turn me down?

It is not the responsibility of the collective community to continue to perpetuate a failed program. It not only affects whites, by the by. All of the "entitlement" proponents are causing a great deal of collateral damage on the decent hard working Americans who happen to be persons of color.

Did you even watch the "marches" in Jena that were so erroneously compared to MLK's peaceful protests? I saw a lot of "black power" proponents featured on the coverage. MLK fought for the EQUAL rights that ALL human beings are entitled to. He did not and would not support all the lazy people that constantly scream about "the man" while doing nothing pro-active to assure that the changes he fought so hard for actually take root and continue to bear fruit.

So, the person who should be embarrassed is yourself. My conscience is just fine. :-)
 
Old 10-10-2007, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Land of Thought and Flow
8,323 posts, read 15,146,060 times
Reputation: 4957
Quote:
Originally Posted by solytaire View Post
I personally do not feel anyone owes me anything. But I do think whoever owns the majority in America should be cognizant of the means they used to gain power, and how those means may have effected other groups and minorities even still today.
Not to stray too far off topic.. but how have all "whities" benefitted from the "means by which the white man gained power"? Not all white people have ancestors who owned slaves in America. ((My grandparents are my family's first generation here.. Half came over during the Holocaust, Half for another reason)) I still like to cling to my Irish and Polish (and a touch of Russian) roots because my family is so fresh here.

However, back on topic, African American clubs are all black. At least the ones I've seen weren't. That's because not all African Americans have darker skin ((there's white ones, believe it or not)). And it's not called a "Black Club" - that would be clumping a bunch of areas that have darker skinned people. Jamaicaian (hope I spelled that right..) people despise being clumped as African American. Just as Cubans hate being clumped with Mexicans.

Overall, don't start a "white club" just to spite somebody or prove a point. The only thing it's going to do is cause trouble. Not something you want to do. Make an American Club (like was suggested WAY early on in this thread) for all people to come and rejoice all of the successes and failures of this very interesting country.
 
Old 10-10-2007, 03:06 PM
 
1,011 posts, read 3,090,135 times
Reputation: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by PApisces View Post
Wait a minute. You are saying that because I am white I am not qualified to say whether or not I am affected by the very obvious reverse discrimination?

Would you like 100 examples or would just a few suffice?

1. Affirmative Action (in general)
a. In schools/colleges
b. In the work place

2. United Negro college fund. Could I please apply for funding or would you turn me down?

It is not the responsibility of the collective community to continue to perpetuate a failed program. It not only affects whites, by the by. All of the "entitlement" proponents are causing a great deal of collateral damage on the decent hard working Americans who happen to be persons of color.

Did you even watch the "marches" in Jena that were so erroneously compared to MLK's peaceful protests? I saw a lot of "black power" proponents featured on the coverage. MLK fought for the EQUAL rights that ALL human beings are entitled to. He did not and would not support all the lazy people that constantly scream about "the man" while doing nothing pro-active to assure that the changes he fought so hard for actually take root and continue to bear fruit.

So, the person who should be embarrassed is yourself. My conscience is just fine. :-)
Right.

I've long argued the merits of affirmative action elsewhere. I'm not going to get into that again, but if you're really interested in having this discussion, let me know.

I've also discussed the scholarship issue earlier in this thread. Dazzle me with your reading and researching abilities and go find that if you're interested.

Your second paragraph doesn't say much more than assumptions and generalities.

We've had the Jena argument many times in other threads.
 
Old 10-10-2007, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Land of Thought and Flow
8,323 posts, read 15,146,060 times
Reputation: 4957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anchorless View Post
We've had the Jena argument many times in other threads.
Man have we discussed Jena many times over. Though, it was a good discussion, right?

Back on topic -

The thought of a "white club" is the same as a "black club."

You're clumping together many groups of people that may or may not have common backgrounds
 
Old 10-10-2007, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Toledo
3,860 posts, read 8,440,703 times
Reputation: 3732
On the issue of scholarships, I would like anyone who is opposed PRIVATELY funded race/ethnicity-based scholarships (UNCF is one) to tell people how to spend THEIR money. I have seen some scholarships for various European ethnic groups. Is there a lot, nope, but you can't blame non-whites for the lack of scholarships for whites. You all need to step up to the plate and start funding scholarships for yourselves. If some people call you racist for it, big friggin whoop! Non-whites have been accused of the very same thing for race-based scholarships. So instead of whining on a message board about the UNCF, go out and create your own whites only scholarships. I don't give a rats azz.
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