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View Poll Results: What is your opinion on the dissolution of the United States?
I lean conservative, and I actually find the idea interesting. 35 22.88%
I lean conservative, and I am 100% against the idea. Period. 36 23.53%
I lean liberal, and I find the idea kind of interesting. 30 19.61%
I lean liberal, and I am 100% against the idea. Period. 52 33.99%
Voters: 153. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-04-2012, 08:05 AM
 
1,403 posts, read 935,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
What did that "settle", exactly? Are you forgetting that the secessionists fired the first shots? Or do you think "I'll shoot you" is a legal argument?
We were forced into firing first..just like the Japanese were pushed into attacking the US...I am sure you know this...
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:49 PM
 
4,684 posts, read 4,563,896 times
Reputation: 1588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchman01 View Post
The parliamentary system isn't/hasn't worked very well for the europeans. During the same time we produced fdr european gave us hitler, mousilini, stalin, and franco. No thanks.
Parliamentary democracy also produced Churchill, without whom Hitler and Mussolini would never have been defeated. As for Stalin and Franco, neither was the product of parliamentary democracy or its failure. And, in any case, the failure of democracy in Germany and Italy began at some point soon after the First World War and produced totalitarian regimes which were, of course, defeated in the Second: a span of about twenty-five years in total. The two chief democracies in Europe at the time, Great Britain and France, defied the fascists' predictions by refusing to collapse, standing firm (eventually - but appeasement is a different question entirely), and fighting on to victory even, in the case of France, from exile.

And meanwhile, in the nearly 70 years - not twenty or twenty-five but seventy - since the end of the Second World War, European parliamentary democracy has produced the most stable and advanced form of human civilization ever known. Hasn't worked well for the Europeans? Utter ignorant rubbish. But leave Europe aside for the moment; continental Europe is certainly not the only place in the world where one finds working parliamentary democracies. No one in their right mind would claim that the parliamentary system hasn't worked well for the Indians, the Canadians, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the Icelanders, the Bermudians, the Bahamians, the Gibraltarians, the Maltese, the Belizeans or the Irish. On the contrary, as any but the most narrow-minded Americans are willing to acknowledge, it is presidential republics which have been most liable to dictatorship or authoritarian government in the modern age: Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Venezuela, indeed all of Latin America, all the African despotisms, South Africa from its withdrawal from the Commonwealth, Pakistan, the Philippines, South Korea, etc., etc.

And then there is the United States - a nation with a creaking, moribund, antiquated constitution which, for most of its first century of existence was little more than a banana republic, and which in recent times has proven almost permanently incapable of resolving its most pressing problems. A nation which, more than a century after the utter catastrophic failure of its constitutional arrangements in civil war, still found its political structure struggling to resolve the great racial question which haunted it from its inception. A nation which, thanks to a constitution designed to frustrate solutions rather than promote them, is still staggering haltingly toward a sensible system for the provision of healthcare to its people, more than a century since the issue was first seriously addressed by its leaders, and nearly 130 years since the first of those despised European states adopted a national insurance system. A nation with the least democratic national legislature in the Western World, the least democratic method of choosing its head of state, and the only Western democracy to routinely have the outcome of its national elections called into question by voting irregularities. A model to be emulated, indeed.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Atlanta & NYC
6,616 posts, read 13,800,678 times
Reputation: 6663
Omg no. Just because there are different regions doesn't mean the friggin' union should break up. What a dumb idea.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:25 PM
 
Location: On the edge of the universe
994 posts, read 1,589,843 times
Reputation: 1446
Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
Parliamentary democracy also produced Churchill, without whom Hitler and Mussolini would never have been defeated. As for Stalin and Franco, neither was the product of parliamentary democracy or its failure. And, in any case, the failure of democracy in Germany and Italy began at some point soon after the First World War and produced totalitarian regimes which were, of course, defeated in the Second: a span of about twenty-five years in total. The two chief democracies in Europe at the time, Great Britain and France, defied the fascists' predictions by refusing to collapse, standing firm (eventually - but appeasement is a different question entirely), and fighting on to victory even, in the case of France, from exile.

And meanwhile, in the nearly 70 years - not twenty or twenty-five but seventy - since the end of the Second World War, European parliamentary democracy has produced the most stable and advanced form of human civilization ever known. Hasn't worked well for the Europeans? Utter ignorant rubbish. But leave Europe aside for the moment; continental Europe is certainly not the only place in the world where one finds working parliamentary democracies. No one in their right mind would claim that the parliamentary system hasn't worked well for the Indians, the Canadians, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the Icelanders, the Bermudians, the Bahamians, the Gibraltarians, the Maltese, the Belizeans or the Irish. On the contrary, as any but the most narrow-minded Americans are willing to acknowledge, it is presidential republics which have been most liable to dictatorship or authoritarian government in the modern age: Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Venezuela, indeed all of Latin America, all the African despotisms, South Africa from its withdrawal from the Commonwealth, Pakistan, the Philippines, South Korea, etc., etc.

And then there is the United States - a nation with a creaking, moribund, antiquated constitution which, for most of its first century of existence was little more than a banana republic, and which in recent times has proven almost permanently incapable of resolving its most pressing problems. A nation which, more than a century after the utter catastrophic failure of its constitutional arrangements in civil war, still found its political structure struggling to resolve the great racial question which haunted it from its inception. A nation which, thanks to a constitution designed to frustrate solutions rather than promote them, is still staggering haltingly toward a sensible system for the provision of healthcare to its people, more than a century since the issue was first seriously addressed by its leaders, and nearly 130 years since the first of those despised European states adopted a national insurance system. A nation with the least democratic national legislature in the Western World, the least democratic method of choosing its head of state, and the only Western democracy to routinely have the outcome of its national elections called into question by voting irregularities. A model to be emulated, indeed.
I hate to say it but I agree with what you say and that's why I'm a hypersonic Libertarian who supports secession! Quite honestly, I don't think the Founding Fathers really wanted freedom for their subjects; I'm under the impression that they viewed the King of Britain as competition instead of an oppressor to some extent. It isn't a case of good vs. evil here, both the British monarch and the Founding Fathers were a crooked bunch. Hell, it's 2012 and even Mickey Mouse issues like gay marriage/taxes/etc are still screamed about in Washington like it's a matter of life or death. I always had the nagging feeling growing up that the things taught to me in school were a bunch of BS and as I get older I realize that feeling was true for the most part.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:32 PM
 
56,989 posts, read 35,116,741 times
Reputation: 18824
Quote:
Originally Posted by LibertyForever View Post
We were forced into firing first..just like the Japanese were pushed into attacking the US...I am sure you know this...
"We?"
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Charlotte (Hometown: Columbia SC)
1,451 posts, read 2,940,852 times
Reputation: 1189
South Carolina must have been light years ahead of us in the 1800s.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Atlanta & NYC
6,616 posts, read 13,800,678 times
Reputation: 6663
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonofaque86 View Post
South Carolina must have been light years ahead of us in the 1800s.
I'm not sure that SC is light years ahead of anything.
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Old 11-04-2012, 03:46 PM
 
47,525 posts, read 69,565,345 times
Reputation: 22474
What would be good would be to separate into 3 different governments - the highly taxed, open borders, welfare states of the liberals could follow their own government, pay their taxes to it -- states like California could join it. Then you could have the conservative states united under their own more limited federal government and libertarian states without any federal or state government.

The states wouldn't have to be in one region in order to unite -- just like Hawaii and Alaska are geographically separte from the other 48 states. Everyone would be happier.
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Old 11-04-2012, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
7,138 posts, read 10,999,679 times
Reputation: 7808
Quote:
Originally Posted by evan83 View Post
I'm curious what you all think.
Hell, yeah. But two countries will be enough.

I say let the Republicans have their theocracy. Where they can force school kids to pray in school and brainwash them with creationism. Force women to give birth to rapist's babies, and of course have the death penalty for anyone who doesn't cooperate. All without bleeding heart liberals to interfere. They can spend 100% of their taxes to fight endless religious wars.

Then the rest of us can move ahead into the future, and spend our money on education and healthcare. Then we can see who does better.


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Old 11-04-2012, 04:17 PM
 
1,403 posts, read 935,278 times
Reputation: 357
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
"We?"
Southerners,I am one and I always will be one first and foremost.
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