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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! That chickenhawk was a neocon boot licker and part of the establishment. I love a thread that is discredited in the first sentence.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!
Gee, big surprise. Look who's home state you are from.
If Netanyahu is so wise, then he & god should deal with it & leave the U.S. out of it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM05
LOL, ridiculous and you are WRONG - Bibi Netanyahu ...unlike many, is not a fool. He's the wisest Leader of ANY nation on Earth..and realizes what he must DO ''alone' (with God's Help) and most likely...will proceed SOON !!!
Bolton is undoubtedly just another ChickenS**T ChickenHawk who would bawl like a baby if HE ever had to go fight in another asinine war of choice like the ones he favors. IF he had the courage of his convictions he be heading to Israel to lead the charge instead of flapping his self-Righteous jaw.
I couldn't have said it better myself, he fits right in with the other brain dead Faux News commentators tho....
Ho w can anyone take John Bolton seriously. He is on the lunatic fringe in matters of foreign policy. If Mitt Romney was seriously considering him for Secretary of State, all I can say is that I am even more glad Romeny lost the election.
How many wars should we be involved in? Bolton and other neocon loons got us involved in Iraq on false pretenses and now want us involved in other wars. These people should crawl back to wherever they came from and leave foreign policy to adults.
A cheaper solution would be to round up these chickenhawks, toss them a Risk board game and let them at each other.
Quote
''Bolton was unsparing in his criticism of both George W. Bush and Barack Obama:
I blame not only Obama, but the Bush administration. Sanctions are only good if they are comprehensive, swiftly applied and rigorously enforced. Obama has met none of those conditions.
And Bibi Netanyahu just warned U.S. Ambassador Dan Shapiro that time is running out. Meanwhile, Barack Obama warmly welcomes the fundamentalist Arab Spring.
Bolton is undoubtedly correct; shamefully for the United States, Israel will have to go it alone. But after all, the U.S. President is the same man who has disparaged the Old and New Testaments while calling the Muslim call to prayer “one of the prettiest sounds on earth.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM05
LOL Always great to get expert commentary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM05
Something you're obviously not familiar with !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM05
Ridiculous, and absurdly not true. These majority of ludicrous comments are not worth responding to...they are so ignorant and not based on reason...but ONLY on hatred for Israel and John Bolton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM05
LOL, ridiculous and you are WRONG - Bibi Netanyahu ...unlike many, is not a fool. He's the wisest Leader of ANY nation on Earth..and realizes what he must DO ''alone' (with God's Help) and most likely...will proceed SOON !!!
You had expert commentary and were debunked and proven wrong here....
09-16-2012, 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Actually the claims have been made since 1984.
When you grow up, you can go ROTC or enlist, and then work your way up to operations. And then you can do fun things like plot fall-out charts, chemical dispersal patterns, plan training, plan combat operations, plan air support and air strikes, artillery support, logistics, and lots of other fun things.
And then, you would be able to see.
You could see that no Israeli combat aircraft have the combat radius to strike targets in Iran. And you would know that Israel would need at the bare minimum, at least 14 aircraft per target. Some targets would require 20 aircraft. While planning your operation, the issue of fuel is going to come up. You will have refuel aircraft in-flight and then also refuel aircraft as the come out-bound from Iran -- being chased no doubt.
How many aerial tankers does Israel have? 5 to 8 (depending on the source). Assuming for a moment that Israel really does have 8 tankers, and that all 8 tankers have an operational readiness of 100%, that means Israel could refuel 48 aircraft.
Oooops.
And then what about out-bound? Those aerial tankers will never be able to fly from the Persian Gulf back to Israel, refuel, reload with fuel, then take off and return to the Persian Gulf in time to re-fuel aircraft coming out.
By the way, what are you using for Psub(k)?
I generally bracket 0.41 to 0.55 for PGMs.
You do know what I'm talking about right?
When I was in S-3 Air Ops planning operations with the naval liaison and the FAC, we don't just guess at how many aircraft we need. It's not like Dungeons & Dragons were we roll two 8-sided die and a 10-sided die.
We have very precise mathematical formulas that we use. Even if I'm calling up air cav to strike ground targets, I still have to calculate the number of sorties so I can inform the commander how many air cav platoons he'll need to have ready. PGMs are "Precision-Guided Munitions." Yeah, and even though they're laser-guided or GPS guided, they still have a fail rate and they only hit their target 41% to 55% of the time.
An F-16 can carry 2 2,000 lb bombs and 2 AGM-158s. Suppose I need 4 AGMs and 4 2,000 lb bombs to destroy the target. That means I actually need four F-16s each loaded with 2 AGM-158s and 2 2,000 lb pounds to ensure that target is destroyed. For troops in the open an other crap, I can play fast and loose, but for point targets there isn't a lot of leeway.
Your n and Psub(d), will be difficult here too. 'n' is the number of missile shots from air or ground-based defenses.
You do understand that unlike the Iraqi retards, Iranian air defense are mobile, meaning they shoot-n-scoot. And you are aware that there are at least 52 if not as many as 61 F-14 Tomcats prowling the Iranian skies, right? And all of them have Phoenix missiles (back-engineered by Russians and Chinese) with a range of at least 90 nm, right?
I mention that, because Israel would need about 78 aircraft at the very, very least, and they'll be in Iranian skies with no command and control.
You know I'm talking about EW aircraft, right, like AWACs, Hawkeyes and such? The Israeli pilots would be totally blind. They wouldn't see missiles coming at them unless the missiles are close enough to trigger the radar warning receiver. And then they wouldn't see aircraft coming at them either. The Iranian F-4s and F-5s have a small profile and you're not going to see them until their up in your face firing. That's where an AWACs would be helpful.
And if an F-16 gets locked, you realize the only defense it has is to jettison its ordnance and bug-out. An F-15 could deal with it, but not an F-16, and certainly not with a strike load-out. An F-16 is like a pig on a bowling ball.
Anyway, those are (some of) the reasons Israel has never attacked Iran....and never will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi
You are so mistaken I don't even have time to properly respond. I'll just detail one item: Iran's nuclear program was already going on in Isfahan in 1973. I was there. During the Yom Kippur War, the Iranian air defense against a feared Israeli "attack" was a WW1 French 75mm howitzer pointed up in the air. Their already feckless military was decimated during the war with Iraq. The only thing stopping Israel is logistics and distance (they can't fight a land war with Iran and vice versa). They can only mount an air campaign. The Iranians can only respond with air power, a contest that they will absolutely lose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMM05
Originally Posted by Mircea Anyway, those are (some of) the reasons Israel has never attacked Iran
Quote by Bideshi
''You are so mistaken I don't even have time to properly respond'' - Well played !! LOL
Excellent and accurate assessment.
Israel already took out thier facilities back in the '80's by only Air strikes. They can easily handle this.
Um, first, Iran's nuclear program....a nuclear energy program, not a nuclear weapons program....but congratulations on your failed attempt to imitate Herr Josef Göbbels & Co.
Second, there's an heavy water plant in Isfahan. Heavy water is used in many applications, including medical applications such as nuclear medicine. The existence of an heavy water plant is not evidence of a nuclear weapons program.
Third, you weren't "there." I have no doubt you were somewhere, but you were not in Iran in 1973.
Fourth, during the Yom Kippur War, Iranian air defense did not consist of a WW1 French 75mm howitzer pointed up in the air
Sorry, but I'm going to have to call you a complete liar on that.
Search on "Iran Haig Mircea" and see my comments about Al Haig.
Al Haig knows Iran, and speaks Farsi -- the Iranian language. Why? Because Al Haig lived in Iran and was responsible for deploying the HAWK air defense missile system to Iran, over-seeing the contract implementation, technical support and training for the HAWK missile system. After that, Al Haig became NATO Commander, then Army Chief of Staff, then Secretary of State.
The Imperial Iranian Air Force signed a foreign military sales (FMS) case for 24 batteries of Improved HAWK materiel totaling nearly $280 million, one of the largest sales of missile materiel that MICOM had ever negotiated with a foreign country.
[emphasis mine] That was in July 1972, and Haig was there to over-see that.
So how embarrassing is that for you? If you don't know what you're talking about...don't talk.
Concerning the Iraq - Iran War, I had a chance to go to Iraq and serve as a US military advisor, but I turned it down to do something else of greater importance....
As I have explained to people on this forum repeatedly, the Shah intended to resign due to pancreatic cancer. The Shah and US Ambassador Bill Smith both realized that Ayatollah Khomeini would be the next leader of Iran. Smith opened up "secret" talks with Khomeini with the aid of the Brits. Those talks progressed rather well over a period of months to a point where Smith and Khomeini were about to meet face-to-face for the first time instead of using intermediaries.
With Khomeini living in exile Paris (France), the French DGSE could not help but notice the flurry of activity involving the Brits, the US and Khomeini. The French discovered that the Shah was going to abdicate and the US was going to install...
....Ayatollah Khomeini as puppet dictator.
The French didn't like that. The French wanted their man -- Ayataollah Rulloah if I remember correctly -- to be the puppet dictator.
To thwart the US plans, the French leaked word of the Shah's pending abdication to a group of ayatollahs at a mosque in Tabriz. After that, the everything broke down as the Ayatollahs all started vying for power, which led to demonstrations, which turned into protests, which became violent and brought out the army.
Now ----- here's the thing -- all Carter had to do was continue to back Ayatollah Khomeini and the US and Iran remain allies.
But Carter didn't do that. The Democrat Carter listened to the Neo-Conservatives on his White House Staff --- namely Gary Sick and Zbigniew Brzezinski. Carter sent General Huygens to Iran to convince the Iranian military to take over in a coup.
When Khomeini arrives.....well....the US was sweet-talking him and now here's General Huygens trying to whip up the army into a coup.
Do you think Khomeini was teed off? Well, no, he was pissed.
Khomeini gained power anyway and in one of his first official acts, he summarily executed the 7 general officers commanding Iranian army divisions, plus the head of the SAVAK -- the secret police set up by the CIA to torture and murder Iranians who thought they actually had freedom of speech.
In addition to executing the top brass, Khomeini relieved many experienced military commanders of duty.
That is one of the reason Iraq went along with US requests to attack Iran -- because the US convinced Iraq that Iran would be a push over changes in the command structure and the removal of many experienced officers left the Iranian military weak.
And that worked to Iraq's advantage for a while, but then Iran turned the tide and started rolling Iraqi units. Iran drove the Iraqis out and would have invaded Iraq and seized territory, except US Navy aircraft attacked and destroyed all four of Iran's destroyers.....who were close to shore escorting Iranian ground units and providing indirect fire, plus air defense coverage.
So I debunk you again.
And then you make this stupid comment....
The only thing stopping Israel is logistics and distance (they can't fight a land war with Iran and vice versa). They can only mount an air campaign.
Air campaigns don't require logistics? Uh, yes they do.
Israel cannot attack by air because it would require in-flight refueling, and Israel does not have the assets to do that. As I have said repeatedly until I want to vomit, Israel has only 5 to 8 tankers, and even if they had 8 tankers and all 8 tankers were 100% operational, that isn't enough.
It would require a minimum 18 tankers for Israel to attack Iran.
And attacking the dual-reactor complex at Bushwehr will not halt or delay any alleged nuclear weapons program, because nuclear reactors are not needed to make uranium-based nuclear weapons.
Search on Yom Kippur Mircea...
....and then read this....
Quote:
Yom Kippur War revelations underline gravity of Iran dilemma facing Israel today
Testimonies from 1973 declassified on Thursday show decision-makers’ staggering incompetence and arrogance. Israelis can only hope lessons were truly learned
September 21, 2012, 2:00 am
The Yom Kippur War, in Israel, marked the end of the age of innocence.Generals, previously untouchable, were stripped of their commands. The prime minister was ousted from office by popular demand. The tremors of the debacle eventually pried open the grip of the Labor-led left and, for the first time in the history of Zionism, ushered in an ideologically right-wing leadership.
How did Mircea know those things if the documents were declassified on Thursday, September 20, 2012?
Because Mircea spent long hours studying the Yom Kippur War at the US Army Training & Doctrine Command in 1984 before he went to Egypt and trained the Egyptian Army. I spent 2 weeks in the classroom 8 hours each day detailing the Yom Kippur War, and the 2 weeks in the classroom and in the field and the 2 weeks in the field, going over every stinking petty little detail and showing the Egyptians exactly where they made their mistakes...
....so the Egyptians don't make those mistakes in the future.
That's how Mircea knows, because that's what Mircea did for a living at one time.
Israel already took out thier facilities back in the '80's by only Air strikes. They can easily handle this.
Israel has never attacked Iran. You have very obviously confused Iraq with Iran, and in your confusion you forgot to mention that the only reason Israel was able to attack the Iraqi reactor complex at Osiriak was because the US gave Israel all manner of intelligence data, and more importantly, US military advisors in Iraq made sure that radars were either pointed at the Iraqi-Iranian border or shut down for maintenance.....
...so that Israeli aircraft could enter Iraqi airspace undetected.
And why, yes, I've read many pages of unclassified and classified US military documents about that as well.
I can see why you didn't respond....
Quote:
Your n and Psub(d), will be difficult here too. 'n' is the number of missile shots from air or ground-based defenses.
You guys don't even know the first thing about combat air operations.
Dismissing....
Mircea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenyo
Wow..Willard was considering this loon as Secretary of State. This is why elections matter.
Listen to me now and hear me forever....
....when the time comes to go into Iran....you will....and it will not matter who controls the Senate or the House or the White House.
Open up NotePad, type that in big block letters, print it up and stick it on the door of your refrigerator.
You had expert commentary and were debunked and proven wrong here....
09-16-2012, 09:14 PM
Um, first, Iran's nuclear program....a nuclear energy program, not a nuclear weapons program....but congratulations on your failed attempt to imitate Herr Josef Göbbels & Co.
Second, there's an heavy water plant in Isfahan. Heavy water is used in many applications, including medical applications such as nuclear medicine. The existence of an heavy water plant is not evidence of a nuclear weapons program.
Third, you weren't "there." I have no doubt you were somewhere, but you were not in Iran in 1973.
Fourth, during the Yom Kippur War, Iranian air defense did not consist of a WW1 French 75mm howitzer pointed up in the air
Sorry, but I'm going to have to call you a complete liar on that.
Search on "Iran Haig Mircea" and see my comments about Al Haig.
Al Haig knows Iran, and speaks Farsi -- the Iranian language. Why? Because Al Haig lived in Iran and was responsible for deploying the HAWK air defense missile system to Iran, over-seeing the contract implementation, technical support and training for the HAWK missile system. After that, Al Haig became NATO Commander, then Army Chief of Staff, then Secretary of State.
The Imperial Iranian Air Force signed a foreign military sales (FMS) case for 24 batteries of Improved HAWK materiel totaling nearly $280 million, one of the largest sales of missile materiel that MICOM had ever negotiated with a foreign country.
[emphasis mine] That was in July 1972, and Haig was there to over-see that.
So how embarrassing is that for you? If you don't know what you're talking about...don't talk.
Concerning the Iraq - Iran War, I had a chance to go to Iraq and serve as a US military advisor, but I turned it down to do something else of greater importance....
As I have explained to people on this forum repeatedly, the Shah intended to resign due to pancreatic cancer. The Shah and US Ambassador Bill Smith both realized that Ayatollah Khomeini would be the next leader of Iran. Smith opened up "secret" talks with Khomeini with the aid of the Brits. Those talks progressed rather well over a period of months to a point where Smith and Khomeini were about to meet face-to-face for the first time instead of using intermediaries.
With Khomeini living in exile Paris (France), the French DGSE could not help but notice the flurry of activity involving the Brits, the US and Khomeini. The French discovered that the Shah was going to abdicate and the US was going to install...
....Ayatollah Khomeini as puppet dictator.
The French didn't like that. The French wanted their man -- Ayataollah Rulloah if I remember correctly -- to be the puppet dictator.
To thwart the US plans, the French leaked word of the Shah's pending abdication to a group of ayatollahs at a mosque in Tabriz. After that, the everything broke down as the Ayatollahs all started vying for power, which led to demonstrations, which turned into protests, which became violent and brought out the army.
Now ----- here's the thing -- all Carter had to do was continue to back Ayatollah Khomeini and the US and Iran remain allies.
But Carter didn't do that. The Democrat Carter listened to the Neo-Conservatives on his White House Staff --- namely Gary Sick and Zbigniew Brzezinski. Carter sent General Huygens to Iran to convince the Iranian military to take over in a coup.
When Khomeini arrives.....well....the US was sweet-talking him and now here's General Huygens trying to whip up the army into a coup.
Do you think Khomeini was teed off? Well, no, he was pissed.
Khomeini gained power anyway and in one of his first official acts, he summarily executed the 7 general officers commanding Iranian army divisions, plus the head of the SAVAK -- the secret police set up by the CIA to torture and murder Iranians who thought they actually had freedom of speech.
In addition to executing the top brass, Khomeini relieved many experienced military commanders of duty.
That is one of the reason Iraq went along with US requests to attack Iran -- because the US convinced Iraq that Iran would be a push over changes in the command structure and the removal of many experienced officers left the Iranian military weak.
And that worked to Iraq's advantage for a while, but then Iran turned the tide and started rolling Iraqi units. Iran drove the Iraqis out and would have invaded Iraq and seized territory, except US Navy aircraft attacked and destroyed all four of Iran's destroyers.....who were close to shore escorting Iranian ground units and providing indirect fire, plus air defense coverage.
So I debunk you again.
And then you make this stupid comment....
The only thing stopping Israel is logistics and distance (they can't fight a land war with Iran and vice versa). They can only mount an air campaign.
Air campaigns don't require logistics? Uh, yes they do.
Israel cannot attack by air because it would require in-flight refueling, and Israel does not have the assets to do that. As I have said repeatedly until I want to vomit, Israel has only 5 to 8 tankers, and even if they had 8 tankers and all 8 tankers were 100% operational, that isn't enough.
It would require a minimum 18 tankers for Israel to attack Iran.
And attacking the dual-reactor complex at Bushwehr will not halt or delay any alleged nuclear weapons program, because nuclear reactors are not needed to make uranium-based nuclear weapons.
Search on Yom Kippur Mircea...
....and then read this....
How did Mircea know those things if the documents were declassified on Thursday, September 20, 2012?
Because Mircea spent long hours studying the Yom Kippur War at the US Army Training & Doctrine Command in 1984 before he went to Egypt and trained the Egyptian Army. I spent 2 weeks in the classroom 8 hours each day detailing the Yom Kippur War, and the 2 weeks in the classroom and in the field and the 2 weeks in the field, going over every stinking petty little detail and showing the Egyptians exactly where they made their mistakes...
....so the Egyptians don't make those mistakes in the future.
That's how Mircea knows, because that's what Mircea did for a living at one time.
Israel has never attacked Iran. You have very obviously confused Iraq with Iran, and in your confusion you forgot to mention that the only reason Israel was able to attack the Iraqi reactor complex at Osiriak was because the US gave Israel all manner of intelligence data, and more importantly, US military advisors in Iraq made sure that radars were either pointed at the Iraqi-Iranian border or shut down for maintenance.....
...so that Israeli aircraft could enter Iraqi airspace undetected.
And why, yes, I've read many pages of unclassified and classified US military documents about that as well.
I can see why you didn't respond....
You guys don't even know the first thing about combat air operations.
Dismissing....
Mircea
Listen to me now and hear me forever....
....when the time comes to go into Iran....you will....and it will not matter who controls the Senate or the House or the White House.
Open up NotePad, type that in big block letters, print it up and stick it on the door of your refrigerator.
Geo-politically...
Mircea
Sorry, I wanted to respond to this post...but dozed off half way through.
LOL, ridiculous and you are WRONG - Bibi Netanyahu ...unlike many, is not a fool. He's the wisest Leader of ANY nation on Earth..and realizes what he must DO ''alone' (with God's Help) and most likely...will proceed SOON !!!
Oh, if they have God's help we can definitely stay out of it.
Sorry, I wanted to respond to this post...but dozed off half way through.
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Gee, big surprise. Look who's home state you are from. 
