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The solution, if there is one, is to turn Jerusalem into a UN-governed city, and turn over access to all holy sites to the UN. Will never happen, though.
Yes it's more like Israel Talibanism vs. Muslim Talibanism, but still Arabic is in reaction to Israel's action. Newton Third Law, cruel but true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_coli
The solution, if there is one, is to turn Jerusalem into a UN-governed city, and turn over access to all holy sites to the UN. Will never happen, though.
Eoin, I did not deny there is guerilla terrorism in Gaza due to Israel state terrorism, but if you really call Hamas terrorists, then you cant deny Israel regime is the terrorist regime.
Besides I am very much in doubt for your claim to support Palestaine.
Whether you want to call Hamas a terrorist Government or the Israeli leadership a terrorist Government is a matter of semantics. When Hamas launch rockets at southern Israel they do so with the intent of forcing Israeli's to behave differently by the use of violence, that is clearly terrorism. But this does not mean that every single member of Hamas is a terrorist, there are strong arguments inside Gaza and inside Hamas over the correct way to deal with Israel.
When the Israeli Government respond to these rocket attacks, their objective is to stop the attacks. Though there have been questions in the past (e.g. Cast Lead) over whether Israel's response caused wanton destruction, and whether it was disproportionate and intended to be a collective punishment for the rocket attacks, there is a clear difference (in this case) between the Israeli's motive for using violence and Hamas's motive for using violence. In this case the Israeli's explicitly targeted Hamas military figures, and while civilians were caught in the crossfire they were not the target. For that reason I would not call the recent retaliation by Israel an act of terrorism.
However, when the Israeli government blockaded Gaza, and built the wall, prevented food supplies from aid agencies reaching Gazans whose children now suffer malnutrition, when they shoot up Palestinian fishermen trying to earn a living, or shoot Palestinian farmers tending their land near checkpoints - then that is as much an act of terrorism as Hamas firing rockets. But just as Hamas does not solely consist of terrorists, nor does the Israeli Knesset solely consist of terrorists. There is more public debate inside Israel on how to deal with the Palestinian situation than there is in most countries, and there are many different voices inside Israel - including in the Knesset.
What matters is not who calls who a terrorist, the important thing is getting progress on the peace process. The Palestinians need a fair settlement, and the world is ignoring them. The Palestinians need their supporters in the wider world to draw attention to the historical reasons that they find themselves in the situation that they're in. Most people in the West have no idea about how Israel came to be formed, they are mis-led by the right-wing media into believing that Israel was some sort of sparsely populated wasteland before the Zionist movement showed up. This ignorance of the history of the place is particularly troubling in the USA, because the USA is the only country which has sufficient leverage over Israel to force the Israeli's to the peace table and make the territorial and financial concessions which will be necessary for a fair and lasting peace. That won't happen so long as Westerners, particularly Americans, are in the dark about this.
You say that you doubt my claim to support Palestine, that's fair enough although a quick check through my posting history (say from page 1?) would quickly sort that question out.
For my part, I have no doubt that you intend to support Palestine, but if I'm being blunt I think you exemplify part of the problem. You'll change nobodies mind on anything by starting a topic on a forum calling the Israeli Government 'barbaric state terrorists' in the same week that Hamas started launching rockets at schoolchildren. You just make it look as if Palestinian sympathisers are angry, illogical and unsophisticated. As some advice, what you should do instead is verse yourself in the history of Palestine, and start a new thread explaining why Hamas are firing rockets at Israel. Explain the circumstances that Palestinians live in, explain who is responsible and how they became responsible for putting the Palestinians in this position. Only by telling the truth are you ever going to convince people of anything. Your anger, however well-intentioned, will not.
Personally, I think Israel needs stop ***** footing around. Go in there and just wholesale slaughter the known terrorists and get it over with. Yes, new ones will form. However, it will give a few years of calm and make em think twice.
This "nice guy" BS because of world opinion isn't getting Israel or the US anywhere. Time to take a solid stand and start wiping out these terrorists for good.
Personally, I think Israel needs stop ***** footing around. Go in there and just whole slaughter the known terrorists and get it over with. Yes, new ones will form. However, it will give a few years of calm and make em think twice.
This "nice guy" BS because of world opinion isn't getting Israel or the US anywhere. Time to take a solid stand and start wiping out these terrorists for good.
Look at this specimen Seagull. This guy is a perfect example of the problem I alluded to in my previous post. He's clearly ignorant of the historical facts, or he wouldn't have such a warped perception of what the problem is! While from the tone of his post it's doubtful that he could be swayed by logic and reason, he nonetheless represents the body of opinion that requires educating.
Thank for rational reply and good discussion. When I called Israel regime state terrorism, I don't make the call just for this current event alone. That would be unintelligent and unrational. I have some best Jew friends here and I knew none Arabic, not to mention any Palestanian at all, as matter of fact the spelling alone is always a bit confuse to me. But I am human being and have sense of basic conscience and humanity. Previous Canadian's remark pretty much summarizes my view. In this particular event, you talked so much about Hamas, I guess you must know better that Hamas is hardly functioning entity at all under all around Israel 3D air, sea and land blockades and West boycott even they are democratically elected. In modern history I can not remember a case that strong power gets stronger powers' support to suppress a tiny poor association-like-organization, not the vice versa. To be very frank, if a super super power treats US like Israel treats Palestein, and we don't have other means, I am willing to do whatever you call to sacrify myself to save my country dignity and die together with our enemy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eoin (pronounced Owen)
Whether you want to call Hamas a terrorist Government or the Israeli leadership a terrorist Government is a matter of semantics. When Hamas launch rockets at southern Israel they do so with the intent of forcing Israeli's to behave differently by the use of violence, that is clearly terrorism. But this does not mean that every single member of Hamas is a terrorist, there are strong arguments inside Gaza and inside Hamas over the correct way to deal with Israel.
When the Israeli Government respond to these rocket attacks, their objective is to stop the attacks. Though there have been questions in the past (e.g. Cast Lead) over whether Israel's response caused wanton destruction, and whether it was disproportionate and intended to be a collective punishment for the rocket attacks, there is a clear difference (in this case) between the Israeli's motive for using violence and Hamas's motive for using violence. In this case the Israeli's explicitly targeted Hamas military figures, and while civilians were caught in the crossfire they were not the target. For that reason I would not call the recent retaliation by Israel an act of terrorism.
However, when the Israeli government blockaded Gaza, and built the wall, prevented food supplies from aid agencies reaching Gazans whose children now suffer malnutrition, when they shoot up Palestinian fishermen trying to earn a living, or shoot Palestinian farmers tending their land near checkpoints - then that is as much an act of terrorism as Hamas firing rockets. But just as Hamas does not solely consist of terrorists, nor does the Israeli Knesset solely consist of terrorists. There is more public debate inside Israel on how to deal with the Palestinian situation than there is in most countries, and there are many different voices inside Israel - including in the Knesset.
What matters is not who calls who a terrorist, the important thing is getting progress on the peace process. The Palestinians need a fair settlement, and the world is ignoring them. The Palestinians need their supporters in the wider world to draw attention to the historical reasons that they find themselves in the situation that they're in. Most people in the West have no idea about how Israel came to be formed, they are mis-led by the right-wing media into believing that Israel was some sort of sparsely populated wasteland before the Zionist movement showed up. This ignorance of the history of the place is particularly troubling in the USA, because the USA is the only country which has sufficient leverage over Israel to force the Israeli's to the peace table and make the territorial and financial concessions which will be necessary for a fair and lasting peace. That won't happen so long as Westerners, particularly Americans, are in the dark about this.
You say that you doubt my claim to support Palestine, that's fair enough although a quick check through my posting history (say from page 1?) would quickly sort that question out.
For my part, I have no doubt that you intend to support Palestine, but if I'm being blunt I think you exemplify part of the problem. You'll change nobodies mind on anything by starting a topic on a forum calling the Israeli Government 'barbaric state terrorists' in the same week that Hamas started launching rockets at schoolchildren. You just make it look as if Palestinian sympathisers are angry, illogical and unsophisticated. As some advice, what you should do instead is verse yourself in the history of Palestine, and start a new thread explaining why Hamas are firing rockets at Israel. Explain the circumstances that Palestinians live in, explain who is responsible and how they became responsible for putting the Palestinians in this position. Only by telling the truth are you ever going to convince people of anything. Your anger, however well-intentioned, will not.
Just imagine what the U.S. would do if Cuba sent ONE missile into the U.S. ?
Israel is receiving dozens weekly. One would change their tune if a missile landed next to
their home.
Just imagine what the U.S. would do if Cuba sent ONE missile into the U.S. ?
Israel is receiving dozens weekly. One would change their tune if a missile landed next to
their home.
"At least 26 people were reported to have been killed in Gaza by Israeli bombardments on Sunday. Of those, at least 14 were women and children, Gaza health officials said. An Israeli strike on a home in Gaza has killed at least 10 people, officials say...This brought the death toll in Gaza since Israel launched its Operation Pillar of Defence on Wednesday to 72...Three Israelis were killed on Thursday."
Just imagine what the U.S. would do if Cuba sent ONE missile into the U.S. ?
Israel is receiving dozens weekly. One would change their tune if a missile landed next to
their home.
The US isn't occupying Cuba. (not yet, anyway)
The fact is, that Jews don't "need" Israel. WWII is over, and Jews are living quite well in many areas of the world. They're the wealthiest ethnic group in the US. But to create a state based on a religious book only creates problems. Imagine the Indians demanding to have North America back again. I doubt most Americans would give up their homes. But that is what many Palestinians have been forced to do. And worse.
So it would be best for them to give the land back to those who were living there when they arrived. Then the Jews and Arabs who lived there originally could get on with their lives.
That would be the best way to peace, aisi.
I have a better idea, let's build a giant dome to cover the entire Middle East and let them kill each other. When a winner is declared, we can start talks about them joining the world, but for now there are too many f***ed people and governments there. =)
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