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View Poll Results: Should we build the HSR network
Yes 192 60.57%
No 125 39.43%
Voters: 317. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-01-2012, 12:15 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,209,414 times
Reputation: 16747

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
Yes we should build it. It is ridiculous that Europeans can get from London to Paris faster than Floridians can fly from Orlando to Miami. Of course there is opposition, as there is to any innovative form of transportation. And no doubt it would create new suburbs, as places within 160 km of center city become an easy commute. The Erie Canal cut the cost of ground transportation by over 90%, but during development it was derided as "Clinton's folly."
The Erie Canal did cut costs - but HSR will increase costs. That's a fact.
As a proponent of electric traction rail, I don't dislike HSR, in principle.

But the costs to construct and operate HSR are far greater than moderate speed rail. Separate rights of way. Special ballasts. Special superelevation. And so on. It would be cheaper to incrementally boost current track speeds and service above 70 MPH, and see how that goes, before committing to HSR.

HSR requires electrified track, which means the USA should be electrifying its mainline tracks NOW, so to mesh the two systems, where practical. Since that is not happening, it is foolish to leap into HSR, without first transitioning to electric power.

In the interim, for passenger service, city center to city center, America might put some investment into compound gyrocopters that can do VTOL.
(Ex: Compound gyrocopter or the Fairey Rotodyne. The claimed theoretical maximum speed of a CarterCopter is around 500 mph (800 km/h).)

 
Old 12-01-2012, 12:31 AM
 
10,553 posts, read 9,651,677 times
Reputation: 4784

That's an interesting graphic pantin23. I reposted it a bit larger---easier to read.

The Disappearing Suburbs | The Smoking Jacket

 
Old 12-01-2012, 03:58 AM
 
Location: Berwick, Penna.
16,216 posts, read 11,338,692 times
Reputation: 20828
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
The Erie Canal cut the cost of ground transportation by over 90%, but during development it was derided as "Clinton's folly."
The Erie Canal did, indeed, cut transportation costs by a large factor, but the benefits were applied primarily to the transportation of freight. What passenger patronage there was rode on "packet boats", pulled by mules, and the speed was no faster than by stagecoach or horseback, Within ten years of the canal's completion, most of the trackage of what would become the New York Central Railroad was in place between Albany and Buffalo.

The real benefit of the canal was the availability of low-cost slackwater navigation via the Hudson River, Erie Canal and Great lakes from New York to points as distant as Chicago and, within another twenty years, Duluth.

The Canal's original backers quickly went whining to the Big Brother of the day when real competition developed. The parallel railroads were prevented by "law"? from competing for most freight for nearly twenty years. The Canal gradually declined and became less profitable, and in the early years of the Twentieth Century, was rebuilt as the New York State Barge Canal. The last time I visited the area, around 1993, it was serving about 20 revenue freight moves per year, but was kept operating in the summer months mostly for pleasure boats.

Naturally, the unionized lock-tenders jobs were highly prized, but the high pension and health care costs for the labor force became an embarrassment. The entire operation was folded into the New York State Thruway system about ten years ago to conceal the obvious "pork barreling".

The Canal was such a success at the time of its inception that both Pennsylvania and Virginia planned similar systems, but the much-higher mountains which had to be scaled mandated more locks, more lock tenders, and dams at even higher altitudes to supply them. Both projects went bankrupt and better rail technology rendered them obsolete within a few years.

So much for the "foresight" of political hacks.
 
Old 12-01-2012, 05:58 AM
 
2,491 posts, read 2,680,778 times
Reputation: 3393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest View Post
Sorry no sale, a HSR system wil not benefit me in any way, but you go ahead and pay for it you like.

The cheney/bush oil wars did not benefit me in any way. Will you pay my share?
 
Old 12-01-2012, 06:53 AM
 
28,164 posts, read 25,310,566 times
Reputation: 16665
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
Yes we should build it. It is ridiculous that Europeans can get from London to Paris faster than Floridians can fly from Orlando to Miami. Of course there is opposition, as there is to any innovative form of transportation. And no doubt it would create new suburbs, as places within 160 km of center city become an easy commute. The Erie Canal cut the cost of ground transportation by over 90%, but during development it was derided as "Clinton's folly."
Interesting point. I think it wouldn't be an overall bad thing - depending on how these new communities were built. If these new suburbs could be built using the very best "green" innovations and materials as well incorporating the best we know about schools, hospitals etc. they could become model cities. They could show the rest of the country how needs/desires can be met in an economically, environmentally friendly and advanced way.
 
Old 12-01-2012, 06:56 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,495,743 times
Reputation: 27720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magritte25 View Post
Interesting point. I think it wouldn't be an overall bad thing - depending on how these new communities were built. If these new suburbs could be built using the very best "green" innovations and materialsas well incorporating the best we know about schools, hospitals etc. they could become model cities. They could show the rest of the country how needs/desires can be met in an economically, environmentally friendly and advanced way.
And then no one could afford to live there except for the very wealthy.

We have that today in the expensive enclaves located all over the US.
 
Old 12-01-2012, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Dallas
31,290 posts, read 20,744,889 times
Reputation: 9325
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
Yes we should build it. It is ridiculous that Europeans can get from London to Paris faster than Floridians can fly from Orlando to Miami. Of course there is opposition, as there is to any innovative form of transportation.
There is also opposition to wasting our money like we have over and over again.
 
Old 12-01-2012, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Dallas
31,290 posts, read 20,744,889 times
Reputation: 9325
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperJohn View Post
Two cities in Florida. Nothing is preventing the taxpayers of Florida build a rail system.

Or a private investor who is willing to risk his OWN money rather than other people's money.
 
Old 12-01-2012, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,495,743 times
Reputation: 27720
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
Or a private investor who is willing to risk his OWN money rather than other people's money.
The days of the railroad barons is over.
 
Old 12-01-2012, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Richmond/Philadelphia/Brooklyn
1,264 posts, read 1,552,860 times
Reputation: 768
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
The days of the railroad barons is over.
and the days of unsustainable, anti community automobile culture are coming to a close.

lastly The fact that people have tried to compare this


To This



shows a lack of knowledge.
Yes, the days of 19th century 30mph tin cans are over, but the days of the 21st century 300mph bullet trains are coming soon.
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