Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'll let the German Minister of Health debunk that....
"In the past 20 years, our overriding philosophy has been that the health system cannot spend more than its income." -- Franz Knieps German Minister of Health (2009)[font="]
The German health care system costs 2/3rds of the US one, and in fact cme in a surplus of 5 billion. How is making sure that the system balances its income and outgoings bad?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Health care in the US is not rationed, but it is rationed in other countries and people who need or want medical care are not treated.
Um...what? The US rationing is the hardest and most ferocious in the developed world! It just rations by insurance and ability to pay rather than medical need. Which explains a lot of the poor performance...
81 million people are uninsured or underinsured in the US. 25 % of the population (Health Affairs, Sept. 2011 30(9): 1762–71.) And medical care is not rationed!? How is that not a more severe rationing than anywhere in the first world?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
The reason other countries spend less on health care is due to the fact that they budget less money for health care than the US does.
Hypothetical....
The true cost of health care averages $5,000 per person.
The US spends $5,000 per person and is condemned.
The US spends 8 000 per person. 5 000 is the high end of what the US is estimated to spend with a UHS system. Almost 40 % less than todays costs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
European countries spend $2,000 to $4,000 per person, health care is rationed because there isn't enough money to pay for the true cost of health care -- which is $5,000 per person -- so, people don't get the health care they need or want and those countries are praised.
The true cost is clearly not 5000, since these countries get better resuts for less than that. By definition. It is almost like you think the US is the norm and not the outlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Canada has a population of 30 Million people; the US has 314 Million...more than 10x the population. Back up, re-group, and correct for Economy of Scale. In other words, if Canada's population would be 314 Million, or if the US population would shrink to 30 Million....
Economics of scale works to the advantage of the bigger player. That is why Wall-Mart and Starbucks outcompete the mom-and-pop stores. The fact that the US has more people means it should be able to do it cheaper and better. Thats what "economics of scale" means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
And let's see why Europeans have problems accessing health care.....
Source: Self-reported unmet needs for medical examination by sex, age, reason and income quintile (%) [hlth_silc_08]
Year 2010
Too Expensive
Belgium: 1.2%
Germany: 3.1%
Ireland: 1.7%
France: 4.8%
Italy: 7.2%
Luxembourg: 1.8%
Sweden: 1.2%
Iceland: 4.7%
Norway: 1.4%
Switzerland: 2.5%
Source: Self-reported unmet needs for medical examination for reasons of barriers of access, by sex and age (%) [hlth_silc_03]
Um...what?
America has 25 % of the population uninsured and underinsured (Health Affairs, Sept. 2011 30(9): 1762–71.), and you are arguing that countries where just over 1 % of the population self-reports that they could do with more is worse?
This is so much better America would give its eyeteeth to do half as well! I mean, what you have posted is literally ten times better in many cases.
And how does this square with what you were saying earlier? Ten times better coverage, and you were saying these people ration care?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Year 2010
Too Far To Travel/Waiting List
Germany: 1.9%
Ireland: 2.2% ---- too far to travel in Ireland? Are you freaking kidding?
France: 2.0%
Italy: 5.0%
Luxembourg: 0.6% -- too far to travel?
Sweden: 1.8%
UK: 1.1%
Iceland: 3.1% ---??
Norway: 1.4%
Switzerland: 1.1%
I have to believe most of those are waiting lists (if you tripped and fell in Luxembourg you'd land in France).[font="]
And having 25 % of the population unisured and underinsured is not worse than having 1-2 % on a waiting list? Remember, these nations prioritize by medical need, not ability to pay. So the people on lists will normally be there for the least urgent matters.
You know that if someone uninsured does not get treatment for something urgent, it leads is a huge scandal. Front page of newspapers, ministers have to answer.
When was the last time "uninsured did not get treatment!" got headlines in America? Someone getting treated like an American is a scandal in these countries! I mean 1-2 %? Do you realize how good that is from the point of view of a poulation where 25 % of the popuation may not get treatment at all for life-threatening matters?
There are lines in other countries. There are waiting lists in other countries. People would be denied access to health care in other countries...[/quote]
Every countrys system has problems. But none are anywhere near as severe as the US problems, where America pays twice the going rate for inferior, economy-impairing results. I mean, the stats you've posted are so far beyond anything the US can do that it is almost sci-fi!
The German health care system costs 2/3rds of the US one, and in fact cme in a surplus of 5 billion.
How is making sure that the system balances its income and outgoings bad?
As simply stated as you ask the question? It isn't bad at all.
The "bad" comes when the "demand for" is allowed to dictate how much the income should be...
or worse the warm and fuzzies are allowed to dictate how much the income should be.
This is largely where we are now and as has been clearly stated...
we can't afford to keep this ship afloat.
The facts are we pay more per person for our healthcare which isn't dividing it's quality to everyone. Why are we doing this?
What is the benefit of doing this?
How long are we going to sit back and watch the cost grow, and pay for people to become bankrupt from medical bills? We are to large to ignore the facts, we pay a lot more for less quality on the whole. I just heard this morning we pay an average of 5000 dollars a year more per person than 30 other countries and our care ranks slightly behind Cuba for us a nation when you average. We are ranked 37.
We pay for everyone to have subpar care, regardless of how or when they get it.(Welfare, emergency, insurance feed, medicaid, medicare, VA, Wic, to many programs to list) Too many systems to stream line costs, it's a waste. Why do we continue? What's the benefit for paying more for this system? I don't see it.
Why not just pay collectively, get rid of all the mini systems we feed independently, and lower costs for everyone. That way everyone is covered, we pay less for everyone, and we can effectively cut paper work and regulate costs? I don't get why people would be opposed to this? Fear is the only reason I come up with but those fears are truly unjustified seeing what we go through now and examples we have from around the world. Their citizens come out on top of us for available, quality care that's cheaper.
I don't understand the divide. I'd think people on both sides of the fence would see this as a good alternative to paying more, getting less, and going through paperwork and mini systems that don't work together to benefit us at all.
ROGER WEISBERG: Well, I think there are a lot of drivers. There's the aging of our population. There's technologic innovation and explosion.
But I think the biggest single driver is our fee-for-service system that rewards volume instead of value and quantity of medical services instead of quality. And as a result, we end up doing a lot of things that cause more harm than benefit for patients.
This is from a PBS documentary that looks at what our system costs and if it benefits us to pay that much. Volume instead of value. Why are we obsessed with more, more, more. Something to think about in reference to our system and how we view it. Just an FFT post for who's interested since this is the topic.
The question of national health care is more of a moral dilemma than it is an economic consideration. That said, we can all guess what the system should be, but in the end we'll probably get the one that operates on a for profit model. Here is the question that all American's will need to address at sometime in our evolution as a democracy, Will WE decide or will BUSINESS decide, not just about healthcare but about everything that affects US. Capitalism acts mainly in it's own self interest, and that's to say that money equals power. Don't think so? Just look at the original American colonial construct, the rich planters were angry over the taxes they paid the crown, they conscripted the poor men in the colonies to do the bloody work of routing of the Brits, then they turned around and disallowed those poor un-landed men the vote, no voting for women either, or blacks, or Indians. Money....That was what made the planters the kings they became, THEY wrote the constitution, THEY made the laws, THEY ran the Army, THEY collected taxes, just like those they said were evil and power hungry..In England
When we speak of changing something in America, we first must consider if what we propose will be a negative or positive for business. If it's a negative for business most likely change won't happen, Why?, Well, it's a historical given that power rules, and money equals power. So, are we in fact a democracy or a corporate-tocracy, lets face it, we can talk all day of "the rich" but the real rich are in fact the corporations, and they aren't about to give anything back to the people (taxes or non profit care ) that they don't have to. The taxes they pay are just a fraction of what they should be, and the profit they make is reserved for their investors, so at days end the health care BUSINESS is just that, a business. We have no right to anything that business wants for itself, table scraps for us, the investors are powerful people, we aren't. Obama was taking his cues from the largest insurance carriers when the government mandate went out to create mandatory coverage,,not HEALTHCARE. Don't hold your breath waiting for America to change, it won't, it can't, power works this way, and not for you.
The question of national health care is more of a moral dilemma than it is an economic consideration. That said, we can all guess what the system should be, but in the end we'll probably get the one that operates on a for profit model. Here is the question that all American's will need to address at sometime in our evolution as a democracy, Will WE decide or will BUSINESS decide, not just about healthcare but about everything that affects US. Capitalism acts mainly in it's own self interest, and that's to say that money equals power. Don't think so? Just look at the original American colonial construct, the rich planters were angry over the taxes they paid the crown, they conscripted the poor men in the colonies to do the bloody work of routing of the Brits, then they turned around and disallowed those poor un-landed men the vote, no voting for women either, or blacks, or Indians. Money....That was what made the planters the kings they became, THEY wrote the constitution, THEY made the laws, THEY ran the Army, THEY collected taxes, just like those they said were evil and power hungry..In England
When we speak of changing something in America, we first must consider if what we propose will be a negative or positive for business. If it's a negative for business most likely change won't happen, Why?, Well, it's a historical given that power rules, and money equals power. So, are we in fact a democracy or a corporate-tocracy, lets face it, we can talk all day of "the rich" but the real rich are in fact the corporations, and they aren't about to give anything back to the people (taxes or non profit care ) that they don't have to. The taxes they pay are just a fraction of what they should be, and the profit they make is reserved for their investors, so at days end the health care BUSINESS is just that, a business. We have no right to anything that business wants for itself, table scraps for us, the investors are powerful people, we aren't. Obama was taking his cues from the largest insurance carriers when the government mandate went out to create mandatory coverage,,not HEALTHCARE. Don't hold your breath waiting for America to change, it won't, it can't, power works this way, and not for you.
When we speak of changing something in America, we first must consider if what we propose will be a negative or positive for business.
Guess what, without "HEALTH" businesses will go to hell! You need HEALTHY employees to have your businesses thrive, and not sick, unhappy people working for you. Eventually THAT will lead to a riot, that "businesses" will swallow the costs for! I cannot wait for the day when Americans wake up and see how they are "really" treated by "businesses" compared to the rest of the world. Also, logic tells me that if one has thousands of dollars in medical bills, forcing one to declare bankruptcy, one won't be helping "businesses" make much profits!!!!!!!!!!!!! (DUH) Money is made out of paper, and not chewing gum...they can only stretch so far.
"Businesses & their selfishness=greed" IS what has ruined this country. How many companies REALLY care about their employees??????? you go count now.
"Businesses & their selfishness=greed" IS what has ruined this country's politics too, and on top of that the people here are either to stupid, to fat, to obsessed with their boobs, or Honey BooBoo or the Kardashians, OR to preoccupied in keeping up with the Jonse's to wake up and demand what is theirs fairly for the work they put in. "Let me buy the biggest SUV, so I can fit my 400lbs A**, and the hell with the country, and everyone else living here, and let me waste as much gasoline as I can!!!" IS the overall mentality. I don't see any culture/art/COMMON SENSE being promoted here at the same scale as a football game, so there is really no wonder the health insurance is private and ripps people off of money monthly and GET AWAY with it. What's worst is that the people named above also think that only illegals are without insurance which is also not true. They also think that ALL of their tax money is going on the poor, which is also FALSE....60% of ALL taxes go to the military. Not poor people.
At this point it doesn't matter who changes what...the president (any president) needs to grow some balls and put his foot down, and stop the GREEDY! Once we stop the GREEDY, and all these lobbyists lobbying for detrimental things, we can have some hope that the Average American will see some respect for all the work they put in to make one person rich. Until then, there is no hope.
At this point, we don't need anyone on that congress anymore, we need a general manager, and a competent accountant. Someone that knows how to manage money, and someone that knows how to put everyone back in their place. I can't believe people here pay taxes to support such a corrupt congress that does NOTHING for the well being of the population. NOTHING. Look at the laws passed and who they benefit.
In Europe we don't allow foods that are damaging to people to see the stores, here damaging foods FILL the stores and nobody says anything about it! Has the overall IQ being THIS LOWERED??? (maybe it IS the food people eat here that makes them this massively dumb to put up with such horrible system that's against the citizens!!??)
Ready, Set, Go:
True Walmart people who "we" have to thank for not being able to afford health insurance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and THIS is what the US is trying to force the rest of the world to adhere too btw!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can say that again......too bad money can't buy QUALITY!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
