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As a newcomer to the USA, I can't help comparing the European system to the American "system". And what I see is shocking.
America has disproportionately expensive healthcare, and US citizens don't get the same quality or cover that Europeans generally get for much much less money. Evidently something is going badly wrong. And yet, how many times will you hear an American reject national healthcare provision as a threat to their "American freedoms"? Somehow a link is also made between national healthcare and communism. It's HILARIOUS.
But you stop laughing when you realise people are dying because of this gross misconception. American healthcare companies are way out of control. Their charges are so outrageous I'm surprised Americans aren't marching in the street protesting about them. Now that would be exercising your "freedom". The current system can see people become bankrupt even with insurance. Get into a car crash and the other person isn't insured, then you get hit with his health bill. Bang. Say goodbye to your savings and home. Insurers are also adept at declining to pay out when they really should do.
It just surprises me that a 1st world country has a 3rd world health provision for it's people. I've heard people say Americans are brainwashed into believing national health cover damages their rights as an individual or goes against American values. But I suspect the real reason is a selfish one. What they really mean to say is "why should I pay for someone elses healthcare?" This pig ignorant attitude sustains the flow of many hard working Americans homes, inheritances and life savings straight into the health companies bank accounts.
Whatever the reason, it's bizarre for such a successful country to fail so badly in such a vital area.
I'd be ashamed of it if I were an American
I agree with you totally and I am ashamed of the Health care situation in America. It is despicable that
as the richest country in the world, we let people die daily, because they can't afford insurance or Medical care. It's ridiculous.
You can't even discuss this subject with some people though, because they see it as Socialism.
I don't know what to think about "Obama Care" but obviously our National Healthcare system needs a drastic overhaul of some kind.
On todays News talk shows, most are agreeing that Obamacare (affordable care act) is on life supports and will more than likely be going away ... soon.
The ACA doesn't address costs--it is still using insurance companies that are bloating the system with their profit. It also does little to address quality of care, which is atrocious in most U.S. hospitals.
According to Dr. Marty Makary, author of Unaccountable, the equivalent of four 747's crashing every week in the U.S. is about what the death rate is from medical mistakes--every week. He strongly urges that hospitals AND physicians be required to publish results from their procedures. That alone would begin a move toward better quality.
The system as we have it right now rewards hospitals who have patients returned because they weren't treated properly. Another hospital stay, another 20, 30, or 40k of insurance/patient money. They are not incentivized to provide good care.
But the failure of the ACA may make the path to a single payer system wide open, which would result in true national healthcare.
The index is twelve pages, and the bill is about as long as Harry Potter.
I'm not gonna make any points for or against. But if you're gonna Great Debate about this, shouldn't you read the document?
Oh, forget it, I will talk on this subject (but not on the bill).
The few most expensive things, which have actually overshot inflation are... Cars/houses, college education, and medical expenses. Guess what they all have in common? Deferred payment. You've either (1) taken out a loan, (2) gotten your insurance to pay 90% of it, (3) or pay a bit at a time. A house mortgage would be #3 when before mortgages were relatively under control people actually knew to pay off their housing debts as soon as possible. Instead now the average person sits on it, thinking they're gaining money as "equity." Because everyone does that, you have enormously expensive houses which can't be sold because they're actually worthless. You have cars that lose value every year they're driven, added on to the fact that repairs are also inflated. And you have the world's "best" (worst) medical system since now you have a third party that decides whether you live or die.
If we had only people able to buy medicine they could realistically afford (no more insurance deals), normal market economics would take over, as in, demand is driven by the price, which naturally lowers cost to what people can pay, and the price of medicine would get affected by supply instead of "what pharmacists feel like charging." Doctors would make a bit more than the average person, but nowhere near the crazy amounts they've gotten away with. Better yet, now that the people making treatments actually have some risk if the drug fails, this would encourage actual testing of why certain diseases happen, to find medicines without 50 side-effects that is supposedly safe.
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 07-07-2013 at 03:28 PM..
The few most expensive things, which have actually overshot inflation are...
Cars/houses, college education, and medical expenses. Guess what they all have
in common? Deferred payment. You've either (1) taken out a loan, (2) gotten your
insurance to pay 90% of it, (3) or pay a bit at a time. A house mortgage would
be #3 when before mortgages were relatively under control people actually knew
to pay off their housing debts as soon as possible. Instead now the average
person sits on it, thinking they're gaining money as "equity." Because everyone
does that, you have enormously expensive houses which can't be sold because
they're actually worthless. You have cars that lose value every year they're
driven, added on to the fact that repairs are also inflated. And you have the
world's "best" (worst) medical system since now you have a third party that
decides whether you live or die.
I understand your point and there is undoubtedly truth to it. When someone other than you pays for a good or service, you are likely to demand more of that commodity then you would ordinarily.
Quote:
If we had only people able to buy medicine they could realistically afford (no
more insurance deals), normal market economics would take over, as in, demand is
driven by the price, which naturally lowers cost to what people can pay, and the
price of medicine would get affected by supply instead of "what pharmacists feel
like charging." Doctors would make a bit more than the average person, but
nowhere near the crazy amounts they've gotten away with. Better yet, now that
the people making treatments actually have some risk if the drug fails, this
would encourage actual testing of why certain diseases happen, to find medicines
without 50 side-effects that is supposedly safe.
Yet, your idea is totally unworkable. Whether the pricing mechanism involves a "third party payer" or not, the nature of medical care is always going to be that it is expensive. The type of procedures done, the training necessary to do those procedures safely, the technology involved, and the duration of care that some people need make the cost of medical expensive, no matter who is paying the bill.
If you required people to "pay out of pocket" for care it would be a train wreck. Huge sections of this country couldn't afford any real care (and I don't mean a visit to the family doctor)
Normal market economics don't work in medicine and they never will work because of the nature of what is required in health care. I can go for years and feel perfectly fine. I went from from age 19 through age 34 without require a visit to a physician for any reason other than a life insurance check up. Yet, suddenly at age 34, I required an expensive emergency room visit for an excruciatingly painful kidney stone. Some people have chronic diseases and conditions which left them at a disadvantage from the day they entered the labor force in terms of seeking decent paying employment. Should they really have to pay the full cost of their illness? Even if "market forces" reduce the rates they have to pay? I may be in a bad accident that breaks a number of bones in my body and requires hospitalization because I was hit by an uninsured automobile driver. Do you seriously think I should be responsible for the bill in that situation? If you do, I don't. Most people are going to agree with me, not you. Buying health care services is different than buying food, clothing, or hardware at Walmart. All these items are relatively simple and consumers can assess their quality and efficacy with some degree of success. I dare you to try to assess whether in treating your heart disease you really need bypass surgery, different medication, or angioplasty. Even if a college graduate can do it, many people cannot rationally make such decisions. I regularly encounter people who can't even pronounce the names of most medicines they take. Economists refer to this problem as "lack of market information". Such will always be true of a highly sophisticated product like health care services. It will particularly be true when decisions are made under stressful conditions by sick and injured people.
If insurance didn't exist, the number of people and their quality entering medicine as a career would be sharply reduced. I complain frequently about the cost of American health care, but I don't complain about the quality of the people delivering it. For all its disadvantages, we do attract some very talented people, but we wouldn't for much longer if we didn't have a third party payment mechanism that guarantees providers a fixed level of remuneration.
Perhaps, the most telling argument against the system you propose is the fact that no modern industrialized country in this world has adopted it. The direction all countries are moving in is a universal health care model. Some countries rely on private insurance. Others are moving towards a single payer system. A few like Britain, have nationalized health care. No one is trying to reform health care "by strengthening market forces and eliminating insurance".
One of things that is frustrating for me when we discuss these issues is that there is a segment of the public that just can't accept the notion that the market can't realistically solve this problem. Its been tried in the past. It didn't work well. Its how we slowly ended up with the complicated patchwork insurance system that we have. It was not a conspiracy. It was simply the result of one failure leading to a better system, but a system that had too many problems of its own. Solving this problem is going to require a recognition that market forces can't resolve every problem we have in society. We regulate the gas company, the phone company, and the electric company and grant them monopolies because our society has determined the free market does not work well in these areas. Something similar is needed for medicine.
Maybe it should be optional:
a) national plan. (to anyone who wants to join, and also a fall-back to those who suddenly loose opt-b)
b) private plan. (provide evidence of private insurance, so then you are allowed not to participate in opt-a for the duration of holding private insurance)
But right now it is not optional, only option-b is available (or nothing). I would choose option-a, and probably about 200 million other people too. Basically people like you are forcing option-b down our throat. Those people who so viciously protest against a national health care system, pretend that someone wants to force them to do something, while in reality they are the ones who force everyone else to rely on option-b only for survival.
Maybe it should be optional:
a) national plan. (to anyone who wants to join, and also a fall-back to those who suddenly loose opt-b)
b) private plan. (provide evidence of private insurance, so then you are allowed not to participate in opt-a for the duration of holding private insurance)
But right now it is not optional, only option-b is available (or nothing). I would choose option-a, and probably about 200 million other people too. Basically people like you are forcing option-b down our throat. Those people who so viciously protest against a national health care system, pretend that someone wants to force them to do something, while in reality they are the ones who force everyone else to rely on option-b only for survival.
Buenos my biggest problem with the whole national healthcare plan is making something like this sustainable. Right now everyone is forced to pay for insurance or pay a penalty. Our government continues to devalue our monetary supply so everything costs more and we may be all priced out of healthcare someday soon. Why should I as a poor American be forced to pay more for my private health insurance which I can barely afford to give free health care to someone else. Explain to me how that is fair. As a kid I may have enjoyed Robin hood but now I realize he was a socialist. Why not get rid of health insurance or just have catastrophic health insurance and then pay cash for everything else, maybe a sliding scale.
Perhaps, the most telling argument against the system you propose is the fact that no modern industrialized country in this world has adopted it. The direction all countries are moving in is a universal health care model. Some countries rely on private insurance. Others are moving towards a single payer system. A few like Britain, have nationalized health care. No one is trying to reform health care "by strengthening market forces and eliminating insurance".
Awesome post! However, I'd like to add a little tidbit: Some nations have experimented with using market forces in healthcare, hoping to increase efficiency and bring down prices. Look at dentistry in the UK and Scandinavia, for instance. What this has led to, universally, is much higher prices and stong lobbying groups arguing against changing things back.
Price elasticity: For a market to function, a customer must have the ability to refuse the product if the price is too high. This is not the case in health care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangerdude_Charlie
Buenos my biggest problem with the whole national healthcare plan is making something like this sustainable. Right now everyone is forced to pay for insurance or pay a penalty. Our government continues to devalue our monetary supply so everything costs more and we may be all priced out of healthcare someday soon. Why should I as a poor American be forced to pay more for my private health insurance which I can barely afford to give free health care to someone else. Explain to me how that is fair. As a kid I may have enjoyed Robin hood but now I realize he was a socialist. Why not get rid of health insurance or just have catastrophic health insurance and then pay cash for everything else, maybe a sliding scale.
I suppose asking that someone read an 80-page thread is a bit too much.
Rangerdude_Charlie, one of the things that has been pointed out frequently in this thread is that you, as a poor American, already pay more for government healthcare than the citizens of nearly all other developed countries.
The US healthcare system is so inefficient that just the government part of it -Medicare, Medicaid, etc, covering 27 % of the population- costs more per citizen than other nations 100 % coverage UHC systems. Which often achieves better results.
Why should I as a poor American be forced to pay more for my private health insurance which I can barely afford to give free health care to someone else.
That is not what national healthcare means. You can pay high prices for private if you want, or pay lower prices to the national system. If a larger portion of the population is part of the national system then the negotiating power (or price mandate) of the big payer kicks in and forces prices down. If you join the larger group, then some people will get stuff for free, but you also get stuff cheaper.
You can't get your head around the fact that more is covered for less, as it is being done in other countries.
With private only:
Joe pays $20k
Steve pays $23k
Jane pays $17k
Jose cannot afford it and his child dies in an illness.
Total $60k paid, covers 3. So it costs about $20k per person, due to the weak negotiating power of the private system.
With national system:
Joe pays $12k
Steve pays $12k
Jane pays $12k
Jose cannot afford to pay but his child survives as the system pays his costs.
Total $36k paid, covers 4. So it costs $9k per person (pay $12k), due to the price effect of the national system. It tips over. You think you pay $12k instead of $9k, but in reality you pay $12k instead of $20k.
Last edited by buenos; 07-15-2013 at 09:54 AM..
Reason: clarify
Buenos my biggest problem with the whole national healthcare plan is making something like this sustainable. Right now everyone is forced to pay for insurance or pay a penalty. Our government continues to devalue our monetary supply so everything costs more and we may be all priced out of healthcare someday soon. Why should I as a poor American be forced to pay more for my private health insurance which I can barely afford to give free health care to someone else. Explain to me how that is fair. As a kid I may have enjoyed Robin hood but now I realize he was a socialist. Why not get rid of health insurance or just have catastrophic health insurance and then pay cash for everything else, maybe a sliding scale.
Some things we just need to make room for. We can remove the fillers we pay for that give nothing of value. We pay for monuments, memorials, some really ridiculous stuff but yet we can't get a handle on the cost of a good medical program for all of America. It's like a bunch of children are managing the funds. At some point we need to prioritize.
Wasting money as a nation and then complaining about a lack of it when people are going without healthcare is immature and won't fix the problem. I think we should grow up as a nation and fix that.http://robottears.hubpages.com/hub/T...r-tax-money-on
Last edited by PoppySead; 07-23-2013 at 09:36 AM..
Reason: Worried about another deleted post.
We have little to fear because of an increase in money supply when it comes to healthcare. Assuming for argument's sake this really is making our dollar substantially less valuable, doctors and healthcare providers are in the same boat we are in. They were educated in this country, work in this country, own real estate this country, etc. Unless we are afraid of them all moving to Europe or Canada nothing is going to change in this arena. Personally, I wish all healthcare providers who believe they can earn more in foreign countries "bon voyage". They will rapidly learn the universal health care systems in those places impose far more limitations on them currently, than the system in America does.
Getting rid of health insurance is no real option in this day and age. Its just a guarantee that people who are miraculously healthy one day will be deathly ill and in need of expensive medical care (they can't afford) the next day.
What's needed is a truly universal health insurance system that covers virtually everyone, pays providers at a low, but guaranteed rate, and removes some of the cumbersome red tape and bureaucracy that characterizes the present bunch of nonsense that we call "our healthcare system".
When I read posts like Rangerdue Charlie's, I realize just what a good job lobby groups have done of brainwashing a large segment of Americans. We all know our current system is expensive, unsustainable, and doesn't cover everyone. Yet, some of us act like the sky is falling whenever any reform is suggested at all. We Americans have really become a pathetic bunch of frightened ninnies when it comes to this issue. Its hard for me to believe we are the country that engineered a revolution from Britain, successfully fought two world wars, and put a man on the moon. Yet, when it comes to health care, we act like a deer paralyzed in the headlights of an automobile. What on earth has happened to us?
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It doesn't address costs
