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Old 12-16-2012, 01:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
One of the problems is our mistreatment of blacks for over three and a half centuries has resulted in a very high homicide rate among that demographic group.
Push offs of all push offs
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:04 AM
 
Location: Houston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz View Post
Push offs of all push offs
Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Trends by race

The War on Drugs is another contributing factor.
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:06 AM
 
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiftymh View Post
I don't know, why are we also an outlier on success, technological advancements and contributions to humanity?
Oh please, prove it. No the USA is not.
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
Yes, it's clear to me that you're comparing the wrong things.

You really should compare a first-world nation like the USA against other first-world nations. It's ridiculous to compare us to Libya, Somalia, Mexico, Sudan... Really? These are poor nations that barely have functioning social order!

If you look at the USA compared to other prosperous developed nations, you find that we have the most guns per capita and the highest rates of homicides - guns or other, for that matter.

That's the proper comparison that merits discussion - not US against Mogadishu, where they have anarchic warlord factions stirring up chronic civil war.
Again, does a first world civilians life have more value as opposed to a third world civilians life?

You can't make humane arguments in a vacuum.

Please tell me the principles by which economic and social instability of underdeveloped nations warrants a filtered discussion.
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:13 AM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
I would say they have less gun related fatalities because they have less guns around. I'm sure the island Australia has more shark attacks per year than land-locked Switzerland has. I don't quite understand your question. You specifically say you want to rule out the one most logical reason for the statistics, and then ask for a rational explanation of the statistics. That doesn't make sense to me.

What I suspect you're trying to do is put pro gun people on the defensive. If that's the case, then your whole approach is off because most pro gun people never claimed that guns weren't dangerous in the first place, just that we have a constitutional right to own them. If that's not what you're trying to do, then I don't see any point in trying to explain a situation while specifically excluding the blatantly obvious explanation for that situation.
I'm not saying I disagree that more guns = more deaths. But beyond this, I suspect there are some other demographic and socioeconomic factors that may merit discussion as well.

I would also just point out that plenty of pro gun people have been claiming in various ways that more guns make us safer. If this is the case, then we should be the safest country on the planet by now.
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Trends by race

The War on Drugs is another contributing factor.
The war on drugs is a failed war....but it still is driven by victims who suffer consequences of their own actions.

Homicide trends in the US by race doesn't do much to fortify your correlation to slavery.
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Houston
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz View Post
The war on drugs is a failed war....but it still is driven by victims who suffer consequences of their own actions.

Homicide trends in the US by race doesn't do much to fortify your correlation to slavery.
In order to keep this debate on track let me just say the fact we have a demographic group that makes up 12% of the population committing over half the homicides must be factored in any debate on why our nation has a higher homicide rate than Europe's.

You also must look at the higher number of homicides that are a result of our war on drugs.

If legal gun ownership is the primary reason for the US high homicide rates why is it that black Americans are several times more likely to engage in homicide despite the fact legal gun ownership rate is higher among whites than blacks?
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:28 AM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot_Handz View Post
Again, does a first world civilians life have more value as opposed to a third world civilians life?

You can't make humane arguments in a vacuum.

Please tell me the principles by which economic and social instability of underdeveloped nations warrants a filtered discussion.
A human life in America does not have more intrinsic value than one in Sudan.

But those nations are in a very different state than the USA. Many are poor with poorly functioning governments and very unstable societies wracked with civil unrest. The basic phenomenon at play here is that poorer nations closer to anarchy will generally exhibit much more violence. So it is a question of controlling for the evolutionary phase of the nation, not one of fundamental morality.

The USA is not one of those nations; we're among the most prosperous and developed nations on Earth. Therefore, when examining social phenomena such as homicide rates and regulations, it makes sense to begin by comparing us with other nations with similar social and economic viability as us and not ones that are on the edge of anarchy and civil war. When you start with a fairer comparison, you more effectively control the variables you're studying and can reach more effective conclusions. This is the essence of science.
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,824,842 times
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America in the World's Briefings: America and Crime

From the link:

This rate is around 26 per 100,000, but reached as high as 50.4 in 1991– figures similar to or higher than Russia's enormous homicide rate (19.9 in 1997). The ‘white’ community in America, which also includes most Hispanics, has a much lower homicide rate at around three per 100,000. This number is not particularly out of line for Anglosphere countries, although certainly at the higher end.


Two factors seem to explain this high black murder rate in America. First is the violence of the drug trade, which is rife in many African-American communities. As crime expert Eli Lehrer notes: “The most likely person to murder you is your fellow drug dealer”. One analysis of a drug-selling gang discovered each of its members had a 7% chance of being murdered every year.[1] Second, the legacy of slavery, Pepperdine Professor James Q. Wilson has argued, has made family structure and community solidarity much less pronounced among African Americans, which has led to problems with fatherlessness and family breakdown that in turn lead to greater disrespect for the law and a male youth culture based around aggression
.

One consequence of the high concentration of America’s murders in one community is that most parts of the US experience very few murders. 85% of counties in the United States recorded no juvenile homicides in a typical year.[2] More broadly, murder is by far the least common serious crime and should be understood in that context. It is a poor indicator of overall rates of crime.


Guns and crime in America
America is often associated with high levels of gun crime. But this again is best understood in the context of overall rates of crime. The BBC’s North American Editor Justin Webb, no slavish defender of America, notes how guns help reduce some crimes: “I am fascinated by the fact, as it appears to be, that burglaries while a householder is in a home are far, far fewer in number in the US than they are in the UK. Guns - the argument goes - make innocent people safer.”[3] He notes: “I have met incredulous British tourists who have been shocked to the core by the peacefulness of the place, the lack of the violent undercurrent so ubiquitous in British cities, even British market towns… It is a paradox. Along with the guns there is a tranquillity and civility about American life of which most British people can only dream.”[
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:41 AM
 
8,091 posts, read 5,895,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
In order to keep this debate on track let me just say the fact we have a demographic group that makes up 12% of the population committing over half the homicides must be factored in any debate on why our nation has a higher homicide rate than Europe's.

You also must look at the higher number of homicides that are a result of our war on drugs.
I don't debate the war on drugs as a cash cow that targets the impoverished...and that term is used relatively.

But, some honest analysis is in order here. @ 12% of the population....You can state that a greater % of Blacks comprise the homicide rate by demographic. Also, that Black Americans provide a higher % of those living at the poverty line by demographic. The bait of the drug war is a driver of that percentage. But, the overall total of non-Black Americans at the poverty line eclipse the total of Black Americans at the poverty line significantly.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s0711.pdf

(We have to go by the 2009 numbers) even extrapolating those numbers...it would still be a pretty glaring disparity.

So, by what devices are Black Americans targeted for drug offenses? It's clearly not poverty.
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