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Not that it's going to have any effect, but for the record you have completely and utterly misrepresented my views. If you want to caricature me as some sort of reactionary sexist I can't stop you, but in this thread and plenty like it I have said enough to refute your malign characterization, and I will have my objection noted.
YOU have stated that there is something wrong with divorce and unmarried mothers...yes, it WAS YOU.
And the only way to end divorce and single motherhood, which has been around for a couple thousand years, is to FORCE women to marry.....what solution did you have again...oh, ya, blaming women who dare to want equal rights...
YOU have stated that there is something wrong with divorce and unmarried mothers...yes, it WAS YOU.
And the only way to end divorce and single motherhood, which has been around for a couple thousand years, is to FORCE women to marry.....what solution did you have again...oh, ya, blaming women who dare to want equal rights...
Those people want equality on their own terms. They want the government in relationships, marriage, and in the family unit because they know it benefits them.
YOU have stated that there is something wrong with divorce and unmarried mothers...yes, it WAS YOU.
I have referred to evidence which shows, in my opinion inarguably, that marriage is a beneficial state for men, women and children, and that children benefit from it most of all. If you have evidence that the contrary is true, I'd be delighted to consider it.
Quote:
And the only way to end divorce and single motherhood, which has been around for a couple thousand years, is to FORCE women to marry.....what solution did you have again...oh, ya, blaming women who dare to want equal rights...
I have said nothing at all, either here or any other place, about wanting to force women to marry. Those are your scars, not mine. Nor do I advocate ending divorce and single motherhood, both of which are probably inevitable. None the less, divorce, single motherhood (and fatherhood), and single-parent families are clearly not ideal, but I'm eager to hear your defence of all three.
I have referred to evidence which shows, in my opinion inarguably, that marriage is a beneficial state for men, women and children, and that children benefit from it most of all. If you have evidence that the contrary is true, I'd be delighted to consider it.
I have said nothing at all, either here or any other place, about wanting to force women to marry. Those are your scars, not mine. Nor do I advocate ending divorce and single motherhood, both of which are probably inevitable. None the less, divorce, single motherhood (and fatherhood), and single-parent families are clearly not ideal, but I'm eager to hear your defence of all three.
It seems like the government embraces divorce and single motherhood, especially.
Do fathers provide role models to their children? Advice? Discipline? Aren't these all traits one generally associates with leadership? Can a father present in his children's house renounce the leadership of his family and yet still provide these essential qualities of leadership?
I just thought of a brilliant idea!!!!
How about the parents being EQUAL role models for their children?
Who said anything about 'renouncing' leadership? Do you think in black and white? Either one or the other?
Do you think that only a male figure can display leadership, dispense advice, or mete out discipline? HA
Therein lies your problem, I think.
Oh, and if you have the money, you can start supporting me. I'm still husbandless! It would make up for the cheating 'father' who never gave a dime of support for his children. C'mon...be a role model!
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian
No one is suggesting in this context a new model of the family based on greater physical strength, coercion, or imitation of the natural kingdom. Nor is any serious participant in this discussion advocating a return to a 1950s "Mad Man" set of social norms winking at men's extramarital affairs.
Using terms like "benevolent sexism" or "gentlemanly" is perhaps misleading (mea culpa), but perhaps it is possible to imagine a set of social norms which acknowledges male and female roles in sustained family life.
To restate the problem: failed marriages and single-parent households are not a desirable social outcome. This is not a partisan or ideological issue: the evidence is so clear that no one can't argue against it. The aim, across the political spectrum, should be how to reinforce lasting marriage as a social institution.
Avoiding analogies to the old world now long gone, it seems to me it may be possible to imagine a family constructed around differentiated gender roles. One of the salient points of the evidence is that the absence of fathers from their children's households has a variety of negative consequences in statistical terms. Why? What is it about actively engaged fatherhood that makes a difference? Surely, whatever that is, it's not the same what mothers provide, because otherwise how explain the evidence?
Do fathers provide role models to their children? Advice? Discipline? Aren't these all traits one generally associates with leadership? Can a father present in his children's house renounce the leadership of his family and yet still provide these essential qualities of leadership?
And isn't it possible to imagine a family structure in which these paternal roles are fulfilled by the father, without also imagining this family lost in a nostalgic Ozzy and Harriet world gone since Eisenhower's presidency. After all, another salient point of this body of research is that families are still working in upper-middle class households, among people statistically likely to have university educations and double careers - the very people most likely to have taken advantage of the changes in gender roles since the 1960s.
Actually I agree that there's a place for ''traditional values'', and even that promoting those things might be in the public interest. But how do we go about doing that without blatant ''social engineering'' and propaganda, which our conservative friends are always so down on (except of course, when it suits their agenda)?
BTW, remember that back in the ''Ozzie and Harriet'' days we still had relatively abundant and decent-paying manufacturing jobs, where one breadwinner, even a blue-collar one with a h.s. education, could still afford to modestly support a family with a stay-at-home mom... in their own home!
So it's no coincidence that educated upper middle-class households are the ones who also enjoy more stable traditional families now... because they also make more money... which provides way more options (and much less stress), with things like the number of children, schools, childcare, meals, housework, healthcare, home ownership, one parent being able to stay home, commuting, etc..
So if we really wanna promote traditional nuclear families... then we need to provide more of those same opportunities to the poor and middle class (rather than encourage any sort of ''moral coercion'' or ''propaganda'' campaign)!
And for the ''natural order'' advocates... harems, cannibalism, slavery, and even homosexuality are also common in nature.... just like slavery, torture, human sacrifice and genital mutilation have also all been around for ''thousands of years''.
Yes, I really miss my cheating husband. Such problems I have!
Just think, I don't have to work all day and then make sure there's a hot home-cooked dinner waiting for the cheater when he gets home! Oh, the humanity! It just makes me feel terrible that I can do what I want, when I want to without worrying about 'being there' for my master and accommodating his every whim! Oh, woe is me!!!
I have no problems. I own my own home (no mortgage), have a new car with no payment, and have been voluntarily celibate for over 20 years. Just bought some new leather furniture and didn't have to compromise or argue or hassle with someone else who thinks he's smarter than me, or thinks it's not the right time, or thinks I don't deserve new furniture.
The Institute for American Values and the National Center for African American Marriages and Parenting co-sponsored at study, "The Marriage Index", which is available here (pdf), which includes a list of "101 Ideas" to improve marriage co-authored by Dr. Linda Malone-Colon and David Blankenhorne.
Among the most interesting and provocative ideas they suggest are:
Public and private organizations could launch a public health campaign to alert the public to the central role that active and affectionate fathers play in protecting their children from neglect and abuse.
Link advocacy for children to advocacy for marriage. While advocating better programs for children, also insist that no children’s program, however well-funded and well-designed, can or ought to
substitute for a stably married two-parent home.
Promote education for successful marriage as a regular part of school curricula. Include understanding of the historical roots of marriage, its desirability as an environment for childrearing, and its psychological, moral, legal, and economic requirements.
Work with state legislators to reduce unnecessary divorce by reforming divorce laws, primarily by combining longer waiting periods for divorce with stronger provisions for family courts to refer couples
to marriage education. Create a one- or two-year waiting period for unilateral divorce.
End marriage penalties for low-income Americans by guaranteeing that any low-income couple who suffers a financial loss due to the decision to marry (usually through the loss of benefits) is legally
entitled to a payment or tax credit from the federal government equal to the amount of the loss.
Create social security and other tax benefits for a parent who wants to stay home and care for young children.
Reform court-connected divorce education and mediation programs so that they seek to facilitate reconciliations, rather than merely expedite the divorce process. Reassess current trends in family law, in such areas as child custody, adoption, and divorce, with an eye toward promoting marital and childrearing stability.
Fundamentally reassess the current state-federal Child Support Enforcement Program, seeking whenever possible to foster not simply more child support but also more marriage and more fatherhood.
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It would make up for the cheating 'father' who never gave a dime of support for his children. C'mon...be a role model! 
