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Old 12-19-2012, 10:52 AM
 
1,229 posts, read 1,064,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
I'm well aware of the difference between a fully automatic (or burst) M16/M4 and a civilian AR-15. But I hear the anti-gun crowd bleating about "military grade" a lot lately. What does that mean? Many (most?) civilian ARs use barrels with the same steels and finishes as the military. The same steel and heat treat on the bolts. The same finish on the metal. Often they are more accurate and sometimes even more reliable than the military counterpart. So...what the heck is "military grade"?
The parts are interchangable and are missiong only one part and a modification to another 5. Its the same gun minus the full auto and semi auto is more deadly than full auto in that a shooter can adjust fire inbetween trigger pulls. It takes experiance and training with a full auto to learn how to use it an not just waste ammo. Semis may very well need to be under NFA control.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
14,372 posts, read 8,965,684 times
Reputation: 6651
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
I'm well aware of the difference between a fully automatic (or burst) M16/M4 and a civilian AR-15. But I hear the anti-gun crowd bleating about "military grade" a lot lately. What does that mean? Many (most?) civilian ARs use barrels with the same steels and finishes as the military. The same steel and heat treat on the bolts. The same finish on the metal. Often they are more accurate and sometimes even more reliable than the military counterpart. So...what the heck is "military grade"?
You are aware, how? Wikipedia?

The finish of a gun has no bearing on the firepower, or rate of fire, of said weapon. The internal mechanisms are entirely different, even though THEY LOOK THE SAME.

1- Citizens do not have access to selectable fire weapons
2- Hunting ammo has a much higher grain weight making those rounds far deadlier

People don't seem to understand that an AR15 (pseudo-assault rifle) is a hunting rifle with a plastic stock. Take the receiver out and put it in a wood stock and viola, an "assault weapon" becomes a hunting rifle. It's nothing more than aesthetics folks.

It "looks deadlier" therefore it is. DOH!

Technically:

The AR-15 is a civilian model, and is a full size carbine. The M-16 is a military full size, long barrel length, solid shoulder stock, selective fire. The M4 is a military carbine, shortened barrel (illegal to own unless pre-ban) with a telescoping stock, selective fire. They are vastly different by more than 1 part.

Last edited by steven_h; 12-19-2012 at 11:28 AM..
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
14,372 posts, read 8,965,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane View Post
They know the difference. They are using this tragedy as an opportunity to push their agenda to a confounded and weakended public. They know what they are doing, to begin with banning this particular gun (semi-automatic, non-assault rifle) and then move to banning semi-auto pistols when those are used in a big news shooting. Those are most of the guns people keep in thier homes for personal protection. This is a big opportunity for those with an anti-gun agenda, a first step to get moving now, while we are still in shock and mourning.

They are playing with the emotions of the public and our feelings about our children, it's an achilles heel, and it is a huge manipulation of the US citizens. It is disgusting and it is disrespectful to the dead to be using the tragedy for political gain.
I agree. This is an insidious ploy to evoke the UN demands for disarming the American citizenry.

We are witnessing the demise of the Constitution. Soon it will be nothing more than a historical document that once guided a nation, but no longer applies.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:09 AM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
1,290 posts, read 1,912,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven_h View Post
I agree. This is an insidious ploy to evoke the UN demands for disarming the American citizenry.

We are witnessing the demise of the Constitution. Soon it will be nothing more than a historical document that once guided a nation, but no longer applies.
Is it time to move to another country?
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
14,372 posts, read 8,965,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragontales View Post
Is it time to move to another country?
So you have no problem with the UN dictating gun laws in the US.

Why would I move, when I can use my right to vote?
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Central Maine
4,697 posts, read 5,956,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostInHouston View Post
That game of dismissing the gun-control advocates because they use the wrong buzzwords like "clips" and "machine guns" isn't going to work this time around. That's because they are finally educating themselves about the guns in question. Learning what a high capacity magazine is. Understanding the difference between semi and fully automatic. The gun lobby is finally being forced to answer questions like "we do we need semi-auto, military inspired assault weapons with high capacity magazines in our society?" and America can finally see that their justification for these weapons is tenuous at best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
I'm well aware of the difference between a fully automatic (or burst) M16/M4 and a civilian AR-15. But I hear the anti-gun crowd bleating about "military grade" a lot lately. What does that mean? Many (most?) civilian ARs use barrels with the same steels and finishes as the military. The same steel and heat treat on the bolts. The same finish on the metal. Often they are more accurate and sometimes even more reliable than the military counterpart. So...what the heck is "military grade"?
Part of the problem is one of semantics. "Assault weapons" mean different things to different people, and with good reason.

Congress (in their infinite wisdom) used the subtitle "Federal Assault Weapons Ban" in the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, even though true assault weapons were covered by and already banned by the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. Because of this, people often refer to some semi-automatic weapons as "assault weapons", and they are not incorrect in doing so, as this is how some semi-automatic weapons are defined by law.

Also, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 specifically mentions the AR-15 as one of the weapons banned by the law.
"DEFINITION OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON.—Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph: (30) The term ‘semiautomatic assault weapon’ means— (A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as— (i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC–70); (iv) Colt AR–15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC; (vi) SWD M–10, M–11, M–11/9, and M–12; (vii) Steyr AUG; (viii) INTRATEC TEC–9, TEC–DC9 and TEC–22; and (ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12..."
And that means that in this country, the AR-15 is legally defined as a semiautomatic assault weapon.

According to the Wikipedia entry for assault rifle,
"The term "assault rifle" is often more loosely used for commercial or political reasons to include other types of arms, particularly arms that fall under a strict definition of the battle rifle, or semi-automatic variant of military rifles such as AR-15s."
Personally, I wouldn't consider the AR-15 to be military grade, since it is the civilian, semi-automatic version of the M-16, but I would use "military inspired" or similar words -- the Wikipedia entry for the AR-15 states:
"The AR-15 is a lightweight, 5.56 mm, magazine-fed, semi-automatic rifle, with a rotating-lock bolt, actuated by direct impingement gas operation or long/short stroke piston operation. It is manufactured with the extensive use of aluminum alloys and synthetic materials.

"The AR-15 was first built by ArmaLite as a selective fire rifle for the United States armed forces. Because of financial problems, ArmaLite sold the AR-15 design to Colt. The select-fire AR-15 entered the US military system as the M16 rifle. Colt then marketed the Colt AR-15 as a semi-automatic version of the M16 rifle for civilian sales in 1963."
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
14,372 posts, read 8,965,684 times
Reputation: 6651
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenGene View Post
Part of the problem is one of semantics. "Assault weapons" mean different things to different people, and with good reason.

Congress (in their infinite wisdom) used the subtitle "Federal Assault Weapons Ban" in the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, even though true assault weapons were covered by and already banned by the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. Because of this, people often refer to some semi-automatic weapons as "assault weapons", and they are not incorrect in doing so, as this is how some semi-automatic weapons are defined by law.

Also, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 specifically mentions the AR-15 as one of the weapons banned by the law.
"DEFINITION OF SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPON.—Section 921(a) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraph: (30) The term ‘semiautomatic assault weapon’ means— (A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as— (i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models); (ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil; (iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC–70); (iv) Colt AR–15; (v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC; (vi) SWD M–10, M–11, M–11/9, and M–12; (vii) Steyr AUG; (viii) INTRATEC TEC–9, TEC–DC9 and TEC–22; and (ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12..."
And that means that in this country, the AR-15 is legally defined as a semiautomatic assault weapon.

According to the Wikipedia entry for assault rifle,
"The term "assault rifle" is often more loosely used for commercial or political reasons to include other types of arms, particularly arms that fall under a strict definition of the battle rifle, or semi-automatic variant of military rifles such as AR-15s."
Personally, I wouldn't consider the AR-15 to be military grade, since it is the civilian, semi-automatic version of the M-16, but I would use "military inspired" or similar words -- the Wikipedia entry for the AR-15 states:
"The AR-15 is a lightweight, 5.56 mm, magazine-fed, semi-automatic rifle, with a rotating-lock bolt, actuated by direct impingement gas operation or long/short stroke piston operation. It is manufactured with the extensive use of aluminum alloys and synthetic materials.

"The AR-15 was first built by ArmaLite as a selective fire rifle for the United States armed forces. Because of financial problems, ArmaLite sold the AR-15 design to Colt. The select-fire AR-15 entered the US military system as the M16 rifle. Colt then marketed the Colt AR-15 as a semi-automatic version of the M16 rifle for civilian sales in 1963."
Exactly right. If politicians decide that guns like the Remington 750 or Model 44 are assault weapons, they'd instantly become "weapons of war", even though the rest of us would know better.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Del Rio, TN
35,632 posts, read 21,943,198 times
Reputation: 22085
Quote:
Originally Posted by steven_h View Post
You are aware, how? Wikipedia?

The finish of a gun has no bearing on the firepower, or rate of fire, of said weapon. The internal mechanisms are entirely different, even though THEY LOOK THE SAME.

1- Citizens do not have access to selectable fire weapons
2- Hunting ammo has a much higher grain weight making those rounds far deadlier

People don't seem to understand that an AR15 (pseudo-assault rifle) is a hunting rifle with a plastic stock. Take the receiver out and put it in a wood stock and viola, an "assault weapon" becomes a hunting rifle. It's nothing more than aesthetics folks.

It "looks deadlier" therefore it is. DOH!

Technically:

The AR-15 is a civilian model, and is a full size carbine. The M-16 is a military full size, long barrel length, solid shoulder stock, selective fire. The M4 is a military carbine, shortened barrel (illegal to own unless pre-ban) with a telescoping stock, selective fire. They are vastly different by more than 1 part.
1) Citizens do have access to select fire weapons. Follow the NFA of 1934, register, $200 transfer fee, LEO approval, ect (at least in most states).
2) Most 5.56 "hunting" ammo is loaded with 55 grain "varmit" bullets, the military most commonly uses 62-63 gr loads. Long range target shooters use heavier, very long for diameter bullets bullets for a higher ballistic coefficient. IIRC, bullets up to 77 grain are available in .224.
3) A "full size carbine" is a bit of an oxymoron. The M4 uses a 14.5 inch barrel which is "illegal" (technically restricted to NFA transactions) regardless of "pre-ban" vs "post ban".
4)"Pre-ban" right now is a meaningless term, since the "ban" has expired. You can put any evil bayo lugs, adjustable stocks, flash hiders on a "ban" gun and are perfectly legal. Next month, maybe not so much.
5) Most parts in a Colt 6920 (aka civilian, semi-auto version of the M4) are the same materials, finish and heat treat as the military, automatic (aka machine gun for the uninformed) M4. The differences are the fire control parts that make the M4 a "machine gun". So...again, what does "military grade" actually mean? Is it simply select fire? Or simply another nebulus term with no real meaning that people like to throw aroudn because it sounds impressive?

Last edited by Toyman at Jewel Lake; 12-19-2012 at 11:49 AM..
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 55,445,069 times
Reputation: 24765
Default Rock n Roll

I wonder if any of these panicked people have ever tried to use a fully automatic machine gun. I'll bet they have not. The only one I used in 'Nam was the Browning .50 cal. on a solid mount. Even on the mount that was not all that easy to keep on target. None the less it did its job and did it well. BTW - That gun did not have a semi auto mode. It was always full Rock n Roll.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 55,445,069 times
Reputation: 24765
Default another comment

IMHO - We have a people problem not a gun problem. The problem people are criminals or the homicidally insane. There is no way any laws are going to keep these people from obtaining and using guns for their own illegal or insane actions. Many rational and thoughtfull people cannot allow themselves to realize that there is random violence that is not predictable because it contradicts their rational universe.

The people that propose more and more restrictions because they know they would obey the new rules. They cannot understand that there are people that do not obey and rules at all. They deny the existence of the lawless because to recognize that there is a danger out there that they may have to face on their own frightens them literally silly. They think that banning certain guns will prevent some thug from walking into a classroom or an alley with a baseball bat and start cracking skulls. Massacres do not require guns. They only need a murderous perpetrator.

Limiting guns, magazine capacities and calibers is just a misdirected feel good measure. None of these proposals will make anyone any safer. They will just make the law abiding control freaks feel safer while putting the rest of us realists at greater risk from the criminals and the crazies.

Last edited by GregW; 12-19-2012 at 12:10 PM..
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