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Old 12-22-2012, 04:46 PM
pcg
 
98 posts, read 377,298 times
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People who think that another anti gun law to go along with thousands we already have will make us safer are kidding themselves. Law abiding people are the only ones who obey the law, so why would another law make any difference to a crazed person who wants desperately to do harm to helpless individuals? What is the thinking behind this?

This country was liberated from tyranny by the citizens fighting for there freedom themselves, with there own weapons. That thinking has held true and kept us free to this day. We still have that right to defend ourselves from tyranny, we the people, because of the second amendment to the constitution. If we ever relinquish that right, we no longer deserve our freedom.
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:49 PM
 
5,758 posts, read 11,634,135 times
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Quote:
This country was liberated from tyranny by the citizens fighting for there freedom themselves,
Well... that's a bit of a romantic/revisionist view, don't you think? After all, how long was it after the Revolutionary War that America used armed violence to put down the Whiskey rebellion? At the time, many Americans saw that as an act of tyranny. But, the government prevailed.
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Old 12-22-2012, 05:41 PM
 
922 posts, read 1,908,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaFiveTwo View Post
Guns don't save lives, people save lives. A gun is just a tool like any other, useful in the right hands and recklessly dangerous in the wrong.
Good points, and my thread was to look at those that do use this "tool" to save lives. If guns dont save alife they dont kill as well. Good people follow the laws bad people dont. I guess its to simple for some of these libs around here. Please post any life saving uses if you know any. Anybody?
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Maine
3,536 posts, read 2,857,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tablemtn View Post
No; if anything, it probably makes that task easier. The president just has to swing a large group of people to his side and have them act as his own personal militia. Sort of like what Saddam did in Iraq.
I seem to recall a video of Saddam being hanged by his own people, Kinda like how the soon to be overthrown leader of syria is going to be, funny how the rebels in syria have managed to mount a rebellion against a national military with the support of Russia without any outside support but somhow they are winning, but yah the 2nd amendment is obsolete.



bill
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:18 PM
 
5,758 posts, read 11,634,135 times
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I seem to recall a video of Saddam being hanged by his own people
His people? As in, the Iraqi Sunnis? I sure don't recall that. But if you check the news from Iraq from the past few days or weeks, you'll find plenty of reports of bombings, assassinations, and other incidents in the ongoing Iraqi civil war. That's because several armed factions are currently fighting each other over control of certain areas of the country, which is what happens when a multi-factional country collapses. An absolute nightmare.

Similarly, in Syria, there is no "the rebels" - there are different factions, some of whom fight each other as much as they do the government. The government was a minority faction to begin with, but probably still has enough firepower to hang on to those areas where it is the dominant faction. Arms are flooding in to all factions from various sources, such as across the Turkish border, or the Iraqi border. It's a messy, multi-sided civil war.

We saw the same thing in Lebanon. Lots of factions all trying to control the same land, like rats in a sack. It gets bloody.

If the US were to fracture, I assure you - it would NOT be "the people" vs. "the government." It would be the people vs. the other people vs. the other people... perhaps ten layers deep, followed by the government, with the government using different factions to attack other factions.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:16 AM
pcg
 
98 posts, read 377,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrat View Post
I seem to recall a video of Saddam being hanged by his own people, Kinda like how the soon to be overthrown leader of syria is going to be, funny how the rebels in syria have managed to mount a rebellion against a national military with the support of Russia without any outside support but somhow they are winning, but yah the 2nd amendment is obsolete.



bill
So tell me how the people of Iraq or Syria or any nation would be able to stand and fight if they were previously disarmed as you think we should be in USA?
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Old 12-23-2012, 10:00 AM
 
14,400 posts, read 14,298,103 times
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So tell me how the people of Iraq or Syria or any nation would be able to stand and fight if they were previously disarmed as you think we should be in USA?
There are reasons for doing things and than there are excuses. Feeble excuses occupy a category of their own.

Some of you apparently believe that if we enact any sort of gun control at all that we are going to end up like the people in Iraq or as a colony of Britain again. Those kind of notions are so far-fetched that they don't play a role for a rational person in debating restrictions on firearms. This is absurdly hypothetical. Its on the level of believing in alien abduction stories or black helicopters.

FTR, I submit the Framers put the Second Amendment in the Constitution for reasons that are much more simple than most of you think. The Framers struggled with the notion of having an Army at all. Instead, they preferred a "citizen's militia". The Second Amendment states that "a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

It doesn't sound like the Framers were contemplating citizens overthrowing their government here. What it sounds like is that they realized in order to have a militia to protect the state, citizens would have to have some right to bear arms. That's why its there. That's what it means. In context, it makes sense.

It has been held by the Supreme Court to confer a right on individual citizens to own firearms. Both the Court and the the language of the amendment itself suggest regulation of the right is appropriate. Reasonable people can discuss regulation of firearms just the way we discuss regulation of the use of motor vehicles, alcohol, or dangerous drugs.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:38 AM
pcg
 
98 posts, read 377,298 times
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The topic of this discussion is "Guns Save Lives". And I agree that they do, depending on which side of the gun barrel you are standing, and if you are intending to do good or evil. Fire arms come in many shapes and sizes, intended for many different uses.

In the hands of evil anything can become a weapon. Thankfully in this country we as citizens can defend our selves from evil with any weapon suited for the task. We can not allow our selves to be limited on what types of weapons we are "allowed" to own. Limiting the type of weapon we can own will eventually disarm the population by reducing fire arm ownership to pellet guns and pea shooters. Once the door is opened it is much harder to close.

We already limit fire arm ownership to honest, sane, law abiding citizens. By enacting more fire arm restrictions we are only restricting the honest, sane, law abiding citizens from owning weapons of there choosing. Criminal, evil, mentally ill people will not follow the law. It has no effect on them. There fore what possible outcome can one expect from laws limiting the type of fire arm ownership of law abiding citizens?
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada
11,222 posts, read 16,424,594 times
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Originally Posted by DentalFloss View Post
No.

But something tells me that if politicians ever did something so horrific that it was causing an armed revolt, the military would almost certainly side with the people. But I hope we never have to find out.

I've been thinking this for a very, very long time. I believe in the right to bear arms, but I simply cannot imagine a time where the US or Canadian armed forces would actually side with their governments against the citizens. During riots, and other fairly minor (in the grand scheme of things) occurances, they would do their duty to a point, but would not fire unless fired at. Even then, they'd just hunker down until a soldier is actually shot, and take out the shooter. If bullets are just plinking off armour, I don't believe they would fire back.
If it's a SHTF revolt? No....they would be shoulder to shoulder with us. You would see tank turrets pointed at the White House, before you ever saw tank turrets pointed at your house.



I suppose there's always that chance though......no matter how small it is.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 12,915,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back to NE View Post
But can folks with guns compete against the US Military? Of course not, so this part of the 2nd amendment is obsolete.
Hmmm.... How quaint. Even with our very own NatGuard kids running around in their Bradleys, pointing & firing their chain guns out at us, how long do you really think they could withstand a concerted long-term passionate grass-roots resistance effort for many months when, for instance, they try to go into a McDonald's, thinking they have it all under their military control, but where two of us sacrifice themselves, but nonetheless do sniper shoot those outlier kids if necessary.

You know; just to make the point that we are still a free nation as long as the gov'mint does not decide to confiscate the Constitution. We Americans are, I agree, a bit paranoid to be sure, but so far it's guaranteed our freedoms. Keeps us on our toes with our ears to the thick walls of the Senat & the House, not to mention the White House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakin View Post
At least it gives me a shot. Tell that to the Taliban, they seem to do pretty well.
Agreed, Rakin! As I said: passionate resistance always beats out the organized but contemptuous conspirators. Not to mention that w're a lot better equipped than the average Taliban. Gen 4 night sights, 100 round clips, Barret 50s (btw, when have you anti's ever heard that even one of those massive .50 cal firearms has been used in the comminsion of a felony crime? A bit cumnbersome, don't you think?)
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