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Old 12-28-2012, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Durham, NC
2,599 posts, read 3,113,064 times
Reputation: 3584

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Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
I think that there lies the problem, and perhaps one of the reasons why gun crime in the US is so astronomically high?
This is clear as mud & tar. What are you pinpointing?

 
Old 12-28-2012, 10:15 AM
 
Location: In a cave
945 posts, read 963,910 times
Reputation: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg82 View Post
Something definitely needs to be done. Mental health in this country for one. I would like to see mandatory safe/gun locks on all weapons (to prohibit stealing, but if they do manage to - they can't use them) and close all the loopholes in firearm transactions. A background and health check for every transaction with no exceptions. If you have a person with mental health issue, then no firearm in that household. Many will disagree on this and it would have to be fine tuned, but too many people are getting firearms that are stolen or bought without proper background checks. These precautions alone would have stopped all the recent shootings (in all likelihood, as no one could be 100% sure).

That's fools gold to think it will stop anything. You need to look to countries with high gun ownership and low gun crime, therein lies the answers that you seek. There was a time when homosexuality was considered a mental disorder, so lets be careful when we brand and agree that mental health professionals/societies are the end all be all in deeming who can own a gun. Asberger's syndrome (alleged that Lanza had this "mental illness") is essentially someone who is just different, and not ill specifically from the average person. I had a great friend in High School that was quintessential Asberger's and diagnosed and he never was fighting anyone, nor did he have a violent bone in his body. Under your approach him essentially being semi-OCD, having much higher intellect than you, and being socially less comfortable deems him to be unfit to own a gun? That's hogwash, he now has a wife and small child; and has every right to protect his family or hunt without being witch hunted by some straw grasping gun grabbers.

Culture and family upbringing is what his all stems from. As I previous mentioned, the culture in France and Switzerland is much more respectful of lives, property and they have a pretty high gun ownership rate with a tiny fraction of the gun violence we have. Why? They teach their kids respect for others, they have a good family structure and promote responsibility. While you might be lured into 'quick fixes' like this and its merely a feel good move, the only way to right this ship is with a long-term approach to mend society back to normal family structures, promote responsibility, education and respect for each others life and property.

You still fail to address the elephant in the room. Nothing anyone has proposed, not one single person will affect criminals from getting guns. Not only does every single restrictive scenario proposed on this thread restrict citizens and law abiding ones, it empowers criminals simply by knowing that they know have more victims with lower risk of being successfully retaliated against and the stakes get higher for you, me and our families.

Another really disturbing reality to your approach of banning all allegedly "mentally ill" people from owning guns that gets swept up into this is our TROOPS. You have no problem sending them and releasing them in the battlefield with every weapon humans can create, then when they get home and might have PTSD you will take their gun away? Where is the humanity in releasing these "mentally ill" people over and over in far away lands, yet they aren't good enough to own a gun when they get home?

That is absurd, and so is that proposition.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 10:22 AM
 
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
4,300 posts, read 4,387,868 times
Reputation: 2394
Quote:
Originally Posted by derosterreich View Post
That's fools gold to think it will stop anything. You need to look to countries with high gun ownership and low gun crime, therein lies the answers that you seek. There was a time when homosexuality was considered a mental disorder, so lets be careful when we brand and agree that mental health professionals/societies are the end all be all in deeming who can own a gun. Asberger's syndrome (alleged that Lanza had this "mental illness") is essentially someone who is just different, and not ill specifically from the average person. I had a great friend in High School that was quintessential Asberger's and diagnosed and he never was fighting anyone, nor did he have a violent bone in his body. Under your approach him essentially being semi-OCD, having much higher intellect than you, and being socially less comfortable deems him to be unfit to own a gun? That's hogwash, he now has a wife and small child; and has every right to protect his family or hunt without being witch hunted by some straw grasping gun grabbers.

Culture and family upbringing is what his all stems from. As I previous mentioned, the culture in France and Switzerland is much more respectful of lives, property and they have a pretty high gun ownership rate with a tiny fraction of the gun violence we have. Why? They teach their kids respect for others, they have a good family structure and promote responsibility. While you might be lured into 'quick fixes' like this and its merely a feel good move, the only way to right this ship is with a long-term approach to mend society back to normal family structures, promote responsibility, education and respect for each others life and property.

You still fail to address the elephant in the room. Nothing anyone has proposed, not one single person will affect criminals from getting guns. Not only does every single restrictive scenario proposed on this thread restrict citizens and law abiding ones, it empowers criminals simply by knowing that they know have more victims with lower risk of being successfully retaliated against and the stakes get higher for you, me and our families.

Another really disturbing reality to your approach of banning all allegedly "mentally ill" people from owning guns that gets swept up into this is our TROOPS. You have no problem sending them and releasing them in the battlefield with every weapon humans can create, then when they get home and might have PTSD you will take their gun away? Where is the humanity in releasing these "mentally ill" people over and over in far away lands, yet they aren't good enough to own a gun when they get home?

That is absurd, and so is that proposition.
But at least it is something to start with (a framework). I understand the concerns with mental health. No one is thinking Asperberger's is a mental illness, as this was just the media fetching at straws to create a story for themselves. But your point is well taken. However, there are some flat out nuts out there that should not have guns and we need to try to keep guns out of their hands. I own 4 guns and I would be all for concealed carry, but this does not mean that we shouldn't tighten somethings up (like high quality gun safes/trigger locks). Anyone absolutely determined to get them will still do so, but you would have to know what you are doing and this simple measure could have stopped Lanza from getting to those firearms. Background checks for all firearm transactions should be done as well.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: In a cave
945 posts, read 963,910 times
Reputation: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg82 View Post
But at least it is something to start with (a framework). I understand the concerns with mental health. No one is thinking Asperberger's is a mental illness, as this was just the media fetching at straws to create a story for themselves. But your point is well taken. However, there are some flat out nuts out there that should not have guns and we need to try to keep guns out of their hands. I own 4 guns and I would be all for concealed carry, but this does not mean that we shouldn't tighten somethings up (like high quality gun safes/trigger locks). Anyone absolutely determined to get them will still do so, but you would have to know what you are doing and this simple measure could have stopped Lanza from getting to those firearms. Background checks for all firearm transactions should be done as well.

That's an individual choice to make about locks and what not. You are certainly protecting a young child who doesn't know the power of the gun from making a grave mistake, but you should have common sense you can't legislate that or enforce it.

Now, a 24 year old kid is going to easily be able to out smart that with a strong willpower. How easy would it be to take the handgun to a drill press and remove the lock? Or pick the lock somehow? Or buy one from a criminal on the black market? It would only slow down a determined individual. Regulation by government in any shape or form on gun owners is not a viable and/or intelligent solution, when you look at the root of this problem its pretty simple to see what broke Lanza. It was his family, he had a rich Dad that wanted nothing to do with him, a mother that essentially cared more for complete stranger's children than her own and then coupled with an intelligent kid (I think its safe to assume he was doped up on all kinds of pharmaceuticals.) it created the perfect storm.

Remove the guns, do you think he would have still been able to kill his mom? Probably, would he have been able to get a samurai sword or butcher knife a kill those kids and unarmed adults? Probably, they are 2 feet tall and 45 lbs. Could he have waited and drove his car over them or some other sick method that is maybe unconventional compared to a mass shooting? Probably, the end result is willpower and his intelligence is what made this worse than say a down syndrome child with the same urges. (sadly, they wouldn't be smart enough to pull it off)

Do we regulate people who have abnormally high intellect? Of course not, but you and I both know they could pull off way more heinous/epic of crimes than normal persons, and mentally retarded people would fail miserably. (Manhatten Project comes to mind when I think of a dangerous group of geniuses which created the single greatest threat to humanity)

While he is ultimately responsible for his actions, his mother/father are a VERY large portion of this tragedy, and not because of not locking up their guns. It was a sick and disgusting way to treat a child, if you treat your kid like that and essentially write him off, tell him you are giving up all hope on him and disowning him and want to give him away as a ward of the state you are the lowest of scum on this planet. She amplified a sick, pained and deeply depressed individual into something he probably wouldn't have been with a different scenario and upbringing and THAT is what is wrong with this society, country and culture in the US.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 11:01 AM
 
Location: In a cave
945 posts, read 963,910 times
Reputation: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg82 View Post
No one is thinking Asperberger's is a mental illness, as this was just the media fetching at straws to create a story for themselves.

Also, the media is technically right on that. Here is an excerpt you should find quite interesting per your recommendations...


Asperger's Disorder was added to the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) in 1994


So, yes you would be banning guns from ASD citizens. I stick to my...err...I stand by my statement, mental illness bans are grasping at straws to stop gun violence.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,420 posts, read 10,769,911 times
Reputation: 7800
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
From a Canadian perspective i'll never understand Americas obsession with gun ownership and no matter how many tragedies occur the gun owners answer is more guns are needed and those that call for less guns are shouted down vehemently.
Obviously most people around the world saw the news of the recent school massacre in the USA,
What are your thoughts?

PS. The contributions and resultant poll results in this topic are particularly disturbing to me.
Would you give up your semi auto if it saved 1 kids life?
Maybe you don't have as many criminals beating in your doors and attempting to do you severe bodily harm or worse( as in adios permanente) up there.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 11:17 AM
 
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
4,300 posts, read 4,387,868 times
Reputation: 2394
Quote:
Originally Posted by derosterreich View Post
Also, the media is technically right on that. Here is an excerpt you should find quite interesting per your recommendations...


Asperger's Disorder was added to the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV) in 1994


So, yes you would be banning guns from ASD citizens. I stick to my...err...I stand by my statement, mental illness bans are grasping at straws to stop gun violence.
That manual lists all neurological disorders too. Asperger's is not a mental illness and they certainly don't see it, nor treat it, as such.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 11:27 AM
 
Location: In a cave
945 posts, read 963,910 times
Reputation: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg82 View Post
That manual lists all neurological disorders too. Asperger's is not a mental illness and they certainly don't see it, nor treat it, as such.

I think we are in the same ballpark on agreement on it in reality, but if you look up the definition of mental illness/disorder is clearly is under that umbrella.

How do you feel about people that have depression and are on SSRIs or pharmaceuticals owning guns? If they need a drug to be "normal" aren't they a risk more so than a perfectly healthy person? Don't you see the slippery slope when you provoke those regulatory ideas?
 
Old 12-28-2012, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Chicago(Northside)
3,686 posts, read 7,183,624 times
Reputation: 1697
I hate is when other countries try and tell what america should do and whats best especially if they never lived in america not to mention never been to america.
 
Old 12-28-2012, 11:42 AM
 
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
4,300 posts, read 4,387,868 times
Reputation: 2394
Quote:
Originally Posted by derosterreich View Post
I think we are in the same ballpark on agreement on it in reality, but if you look up the definition of mental illness/disorder is clearly is under that umbrella.

How do you feel about people that have depression and are on SSRIs or pharmaceuticals owning guns? If they need a drug to be "normal" aren't they a risk more so than a perfectly healthy person? Don't you see the slippery slope when you provoke those regulatory ideas?
Asperger's (and the other diagnosis of Autism) are neurological disorders - not an illness. Illness can be treated and are not in the same ballpark as disorders, which cannot be "cured". As a matter of fact, one of the most common attributes of autism is that they are strict followers of rules. But, as a slippery slope, well everything is a slippery slope if you don't apply brakes on your way down. I think people with depression, Bipolar, or even drug-addiction (including alcoholism) should have their firearm license's pulled. If a drunk gets convicted, he loses his right to drive until such time as he/she gets the help they need. I would treat their right to that firearm, not as a supreme right over all others, but as one that is equally constitutional and lawful to all others AND within the context of all constitutional law. The slippery slope has places that are good stopping points before you get to the bottom.
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