Americans Are Living In An Orwellian State (illegals, companies, parties)

[OICU812]

Originally Posted by Retroit

That's not "control". I don't have to buy a car. Most of the regulations I agree with as do most people. Some go a little too far, and some not enough.

Sure it is control. We may as well be in the old USSR, where the people were free to buy whatever car they wanted.... as long as the car was one the government authorized the manufacturer to build. Try buying/selling raw milk and you just might run into government bureaucrats preventing you from doing so.

You are free to buy a car or milk, but the only choices available to you are decided upon by the federal government. That is control, that's not freedom of choice.

Originally Posted by Retroit

And most of those requirements are reasonable and generally accepted as being in the best interest of consumers. Certainly not some form of governmental oppression.

I suppose you would be fine if government started deciding other choices for you too, because government knows what is best for you.

Originally Posted by Retroit

Would you rather pay for the free medical service that non-insured people get?...because that is what you will continue to do without this requirement. (You've been doing it all along, sucker.)

Geez, you are one of those easily lead sheep aren't you? There are many other ways to lower health care costs without government bureaucrats setting a one-size-fits-all template and making it the law for 300 million people. How can a handful of bureaucrats possibly guess at the medical needs and desires of 300 million individuals? They can't, and never will.

Originally Posted by Retroit

And...? The problem is...? I have nothing to hide.

Quite a bit, actually. I think much of this monitoring and regulating is beneficial. I wish there was better regulation of unscrupulous businesspeople and more monitoring of mentally unstable citizens.

Who are these angels in government that you envision? Not everyone in government is a trustworthy individual. All we need to do is look at the airport screeners who passed around those nude scans of women. The point is, if all of your data is out there, and some unscrupulous person can get their hands on it, they can exploit it, blackmail, extort, coerce and harass innocent citizens.

If government tracks the web sites you go to, the tweets you make, your blogs, posts on Facebook, the people you email or talk to on the phone, and you might be categorized and listed. Not necessarily by any government agency, but by people within government who have access to that huge database. One day you may apply for a job, a loan, to a university, or whatever, and your name ended up on some blacklist, either rightly or wrongly, and suddenly you are an undesirable. No loan, no job, no scholarship or admission, all because someone associated you and categorized you as "one of them."

Even if it's not malicious people working within our government who sold or shared sensitive information, it's not as if government databanks have been hacked into before, or laptop computers were not left in rental cars or in airport bars before.

[OICU812]

Originally Posted by vacoder

And facebook

For some of the stupid crap people post on there, it should have been named Facepalm.

[TheEternalSanctuaryMan]

Originally Posted by Retroit

I fear a private citizen who wants to kill me in a mass murder more than I fear the people who use the power of government to steal money out of my paycheck.

But irt won't end there. It never does.

Originally Posted by geofra

Googleblock;

... the deflection of big brother criticism to government when it is really Google that is watching.

Yes, our pal Google! Started with CIA-controlled venture capital funds utilyzing technology developed by the military funded by Congress. Well...

Originally Posted by OICU812

For starters, we cannot buy a Ford or Chevy car that does not meet strict federal regulations, the same for every product we buy. Government controls the choices available to us in the products we buy. You are free to buy whatever car, toilet, toaster oven or washing machine you want, as long as it meets with federal government approval first. BTW, we will soon all be required to purchase a pre-approved federal health insurance policy or suffer fines, punishment, or both.

Right now, this very moment, some part of the federal government is tracking something you are doing, whether it's the phone calls you make, the emails you send, the bank loan you take or deposit you make, the salary you earn, and maybe even the products and services you charge on your credit card. Soon enough the government will track every doctor's visit or prescription you are given.

The question is, what can you do that the government does not either control, monitor or regulate?

With all these technological breakthroughs, very little. How many would see the benefits to a life lived off-grid even if they could?

Originally Posted by St. Josef the Chewable

I'd argue that we live in a more "Huxleyan" state a la Brave New World. There is an enormous amount of top-down control here, but it rarely follows the boot-to-the-face model of Orwell. People balk at stupid bureaucratic rules and such, but for the most part, few here are inclined to "take to the streets". And when they do (file under: Occupy) they don't have any well-defined program, or even a clearly identified enemy; just a litany of vague complaints, some valid, some absurd.

There also seem to be many folks, especially young people, who are indifferent to the idea that someone might be trying to control them, for example, in tracking their online habits in order to market to them. In fact, many welcome the idea. Privacy is not an issue for them, as long as fame and a fast internet connection are guaranteed. Monolithic corporations work in tandem with the government on a carrot and stick model. Buy the latest gadgets, get worked up about the latest newsworthy fad or hysteria, spend your life toiling during the week and then escaping in an frenzy of sports/shopping/booze to make it seem worthwhile: that's how "they" get you.

However, there's a lot less hassle here if you actively try to stay on the periphery of the grid. If you don't depend on the government, the media, and mass marketing to decide what's important in your life, you can find some freedom here. "These are not the demographic you're seeking."

...with...

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

You can actually find a lot of freedom there.

But for how much longer? As for Orwell, he was off by a few decades, his insight working police beats still quite informative and Huxley grew up surrounded in botany, which accounts for his preternatural insight on how things grow & develop in a soil- more acute, precise, since that world he envisioned exists today right down to last granule of craved-for soma.

Originally Posted by Retroit

That's not "control". I don't have to buy a car. Most of the regulations I agree with as do most people. Some go a little too far, and some not enough.



And most of those requirements are reasonable and generally accepted as being in the best interest of consumers. Certainly not some form of governmental oppression.



Would you rather pay for the free medical service that non-insured people get?...because that is what you will continue to do without this requirement. (You've been doing it all along, sucker.)



And...? The problem is...? I have nothing to hide.



Quite a bit, actually. I think much of this monitoring and regulating is beneficial. I wish there was better regulation of unscrupulous businesspeople and more monitoring of mentally unstable citizens.

Uh, no, it isn't since those unscrupulous businesspeople are the ones contributing to (that is, purchasing) the lawmakers' campaigns who in turn fund the law enforcers and appoint certain judges. Most of those regulations are there to control who owns & operates in key industries by use of onerous requirements & undue government revenue generation. People think they are protected from some danger when they are simply agreeing to having a monoply take the reigns.

As for hiding? Well, maybe you do if enough digging is done and you may never know it? Why are so many so relaxed about the fact that many government agencies working in concert need so much information on its citizenry? If they have no purpose now, when will they?

As for this wondrous byzantine HC bill? Well, you'll see when it is fully implemented. And everyone else will still be paying for the impoverished unable to pay their IRS-collected 'mandate'. Nothing has changed except the scope of the swindle and an increased participation by government agencies. And always more data-sets to compile...

[LAWS]

British people CRAVE cctv, they DEMAND to be watched. And then when they inevitably get fined because some 'refuge inspection officer' (or similar title) finds they but the wrong rubbish in the wrong bin they scream invasion of privacy, big brother state etc.

You cant help people who are their own worst enemies.

[JamesGTAIV]

Originally Posted by geofra

Googleblock;

... the deflection of big brother criticism to government when it is really Google that is watching.

It's true. And Google sells this information to government(s) as does Facebook. Nothing you can do about it except to not use the sites.

[mary54mi]

Wow 1&1/5+ yrs ago remembered reading this post,was in agreement but it seemed a wee paranoid to say so, but not today. Owell was right on. Cell phones internet, irs conspiring blatantly to prevent a civil rights protest via
Tea party groups.
Too true!
Got to reread 1984 & get INVOLVED asap!

OICU812, very clever name btw

[ovcatto]

Originally Posted by OICU812

...so says known leftist Oliver Stone. What do you think?

What I think is that Oliver Stone jumped the shark years ago. I find it hard to give serious consideration to a man who calls the U.S. a police state, but finds the time to direct adoring portrayals of Castro's Cuba.

[nightbird47]

Originally Posted by mary54mi

Wow 1&1/5+ yrs ago remembered reading this post,was in agreement but it seemed a wee paranoid to say so, but not today. Owell was right on. Cell phones internet, irs conspiring blatantly to prevent a civil rights protest via
Tea party groups.
Too true!
Got to reread 1984 & get INVOLVED asap!

OICU812, very clever name btw

Also read We, by Zamiatian. It preceeded the others and is chilling, especially in the covert ways of watching and the belief that all must be 'happy' as defined by the top. I think its the Penguin publication that is from his origional manuscript and the best. The intro is long and drags but don't let it stop you reading the rest.

[Grizzmeister]

Originally Posted by mary54mi

Wow 1&1/5+ yrs ago remembered reading this post,was in agreement but it seemed a wee paranoid to say so, but not today.

Just wait until you find out definitively that psychotronic (mind control) devices which allow people's voluntary and involuntary body functions to be controlled remotely are real. It's gonna blow your mind when it's officially revealed but remember that the Grizzmeister confirmed it for you first.

[mwruckman]

I don't even know if Mr Stone has even read Orwell's 1984. Orwell speaking through Winston Smith said that "Freedom is the power to say 2+2 = 4 not 3 or 5 and from that all else follows." Given the drivel Stone has filmed like JFK he would have fit in to the Ministry of Truth (MiniTruth) making pornography for the Proles.