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Not true at all. It's the likelihood of getting caught, not the severity of the punishment, that deters crime.
Look at this illustration. If the penalty for speeding were that you lose your car, but the likelihood of being caught was one in a million, you wouldn't care about the punishment. On the other hand, if the penalty is light ($20 fine), but you had a 90% chance of getting caught, then you would probably NOT speed.
There is a wealth of information supporting this position. Here are two sites;
"While the criminal justice system as a whole provides some deterrent effect, a key
question for policy development regards whether enhanced sanctions or an enhanced
possibility of being apprehended provide any additional deterrent benefits. Research
to date generally indicates that increases in the certainty of punishment, as opposed to
the severity of punishment, are more likely to produce deterrent benefits."
I do agree. On the other hand we do have a punishment problem. Nothing means much in today's legal system. A murder can be out in just a few years and prison is better than seniors home. Our legal system has not been serving the role of deterrence for a lonnnnnng time.
most gangs like the uzi, and the mac10(fully auto)...both which are extremely hard(almost impossible) to get legally in the USA
most guns are not even made here:
is uzi american made
is mac10's american made
is glocks american made
is the PKM american made
is the MP5 american made
is the FAL american made
is the G3 american made
is the ak47 or the ak74 american made
is the mp40 american made
is the ak5 american made
is the ak101 american made
is the ar94 american made
is the berretta american made
is the sig amercan made
is the bushmaster american made
the answer to ALL is ...NO
the problem isnt legal guns, or legally obtained guns...its illegal guns
Most gun crimes in the US are committed w/ guns that are legally available for purchase in the US. That's a fact. All the other info about "famous" guns being manufactured abroad have nothing to do w/ what we're talking about. International gun smuggling rings are a Hollywood plot device, not reality.
I do agree. On the other hand we do have a punishment problem. Nothing means much in today's legal system. A murder can be out in just a few years and prison is better than seniors home. Our legal system has not been serving the role of deterrence for a lonnnnnng time.
Let's say that we punishment is the solution. How does that change that almost all the gun sales that happened under F&F and made it into cartel hands were legal?
Let's say that we punishment is the solution. How does that change that almost all the gun sales that happened under F&F and made it into cartel hands were legal?
They weren't legal. When someone lied on the form 4473, it is already illegal. The ATF decided to let them walk.
It is the unwillingness of the ATF created this problem you are saying. How many people would make straw purchase if they would end up with 25 years mandatory?
They weren't legal. When someone lied on the form 4473, it is already illegal. The ATF decided to let them walk.
It is the unwillingness of the ATF created this problem you are saying. How many people would make straw purchase if they would end up with 25 years mandatory?
So why haven't the people who lied on that form 4473 been arrested? Why is it when the ATF brought a stack of name of straw purchasers to AZ' state prosecutors, they denied to press charges b/c the ATF didn't have a case?
So why haven't the people who lied on that form 4473 been arrested? Why is it when the ATF brought a stack of name of straw purchasers to AZ' state prosecutors, they denied to press charges b/c the ATF didn't have a case?
"ATF decided to let them walk."
Had ATF been actively going after the straw purchaser, it wouldn't be so much of a problem. It's just like illegal immigration. Same deal.
Let's say that we punishment is the solution. How does that change that almost all the gun sales that happened under F&F and made it into cartel hands were legal?
I don't know how siginificant a point that is. From what I've seen, the gun sales under F&F were intended from the start to end up in cartel hands. So that's sorta like saying how come so many people under investigation for murder end up being murder suspects?
The agents faced numerous obstacles in what they dubbed the Fast and Furious case. (They named it after the street-racing movie because the suspects drag raced cars together.) Their greatest difficulty by far, however, was convincing prosecutors that they had sufficient grounds to seize guns and arrest straw purchasers. By June 2010 the agents had sent the U.S. Attorney's office a list of 31 suspects they wanted to arrest, with 46 pages outlining their illegal acts. But for the next seven months prosecutors did not indict a single suspect.
Quote:
By January 2010 the agents had identified 20 suspects who had paid some $350,000 in cash for more than 650 guns. According to Rep. Issa's congressional committee, Group VII had enough evidence to make arrests and close the case then.
This was not the view of federal prosecutors. In a meeting on Jan. 5, 2010, Emory Hurley, the assistant U.S. Attorney in Phoenix overseeing the Fast and Furious case, told the agents they lacked probable cause for arrests, according to ATF records. Hurley's judgment reflected accepted policy at the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. "[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime."
I don't know how siginificant a point that is. From what I've seen, the gun sales under F&F were intended from the start to end up in cartel hands. So that's sorta like saying how come so many people under investigation for murder end up being murder suspects?
The problem w/ F&F is that they used legal methods to track gun sales to illegal people. The same avenue of directing guns from legal sales to anyone still exists regardless of F&F or the cartels. That avenue is how the most guns make it into criminal hands. That avenue is what people in this thread refuse to discuss.
In fact, several people in this thread assumed that avenue was illegal and the gov't wasn't doing its job enforcing the law. Then when they learn that the avenue is in fact legal, they go quiet and disappear or change their story to "well regulation wouldn't work anyway."
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