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Those murders in Chicago and other mainly poor, minority areas are happening for many different reasons. Just like they are in the unfortunate circumstances surrounding the tragedy in Newton. It's not just somebody having access to a gun. Are the guns a major problem? You darn tootin' right they are. Are they THE problem? I don't think so. Are liberals asking for everybody to turn over their guns or face the guillotines? I haven't heard any thing of the such. If you'd like to address some of the other problems that are facing poor, majority minority neighborhoods in inner-cities.....i'd be more then welcomed to walk you through some ideas. It's just that as there is an underlying issue with the mental health component to a lot of the majority "white" mass murders......there's a whole slew of problems concerning poor, minority communities, that go back centuries(most of which are not of their doing) and there are still remnants of their exploitation/marginalization's and many more to this day.
I've made many of those same points in the other threads on gun violence.
I've also commented that the presidents proposals are essentially pretty minor and ineffectual. (Your guillotines comment seems to infer we agree on that as well.)
Do you not find it odd that the majority of the threads revolve around what is a tiny amount of the shootings?
The threads that do get started (for whatever motivation) about the majority of the gun violence problem (urban gangs, drugs, poverty etc.) bog down in racism and defensive dogma.
In short, everyone is grinding their own political axes and don't really give a crap about solving anything.
Racists are spouting about the blacks etc.
The right is blaming the lefts anti-gun policies
The left is trying to portray the problem as "old white NRA types"
That's the bottom line, NOBODY is having an honest conversation about the real problems that are causing most of these gun deaths. The axe grinders have stolen all reasonable discourse.
I've made many of those same points in the other threads on gun violence.
I've also commented that the presidents proposals are essentially pretty minor and ineffectual. (Your guillotines comment seems to infer we agree on that as well.)
Do you not find it odd that the majority of the threads revolve around what is a tiny amount of the shootings?
The threads that do get started (for whatever motivation) about the majority of the gun violence problem (urban gangs, drugs, poverty etc.) bog down in racism and defensive dogma.
In short, everyone is grinding their own political axes and don't really give a crap about solving anything.
Racists are spouting about the blacks etc.
The right is blaming the lefts anti-gun policies
The left is trying to portray the problem as "old white NRA types"
That's the bottom line, NOBODY is having an honest conversation about the real problems that are causing most of these gun deaths. The axe grinders have stolen all reasonable discourse.
I have an old saying that I use for a lot of political topics, and it goes like this "When we see a person sneeze or blow their nose, we think the person may have a cold.....what we don't think about, though, is the bug that may be inside that person's body that is ravaging their immune system". In other words, we just look at that which we can readily see, but rarely look into what is/are the real cause(s) to what we see.
Why not? The community produces and tolerates these deeds. If the shoe fits.
If Blacks don't want to take responsibility for the crime that emanates from its communities, why should they claim Obamas success as their own?
Only aobut .0125% of the Black population is taking part in the violence. And guess what? Most Black people flee from areas where violence is to the extremes, whether it be from their own people, or from other ethnicities. Why should I take responsibility for something that I don't even live around? Most Black people don't tolerate this, so they vote with their feet and move to other places. Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand this. You don't "Identify" with Black Americans. It doesn't matter to you that at the end of the day, you will be treated no differently than a Black American. 50% of perception is how you look. If you look Black, you are perceived as Black.
Only aobut .0125% of the Black population is taking part in the violence. And guess what? Most Black people flee from areas where violence is to the extremes, whether it be from their own people, or from other ethnicities. Why should I take responsibility for something that I don't even live around? Most Black people don't tolerate this, so they vote with their feet and move to other places. Of course I wouldn't expect you to understand this. You don't "Identify" with Black Americans. It doesn't matter to you that at the end of the day, you will be treated no differently than a Black American. 50% of perception is how you look. If you look Black, you are perceived as Black.
GreenMariner? You are obviously an intelligent person, so let's be honest about it all. That is something that this country sorely lacks in terms of discussion about racial crime rates. So many are afraid to speak honestly...
I make no bones about that I am a paleo-Southern conservative and oppose even certain parts of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. That is, to say, I believe any private business, black, white, asian, hispanic, should have the right to hire, fire, serve, whoever they want. And I will repeat that.
I say this because I don't want anyone to get the idea I am one of those pathetic "neo-cons" who slobbers all over the MLK holiday and gets accused (sometimes rightfully) of hypocricy.
Anyway, back to being honest about it all. It is a sad but blunt fact that one of the biggest single factors of just how dangerous is an area to live, is the percentage of blacks in the area. You speak of blacks fleeing violent neighborhoods. And you are right! But where do they go? They go to mostly white and/or asian areas. It is also a blunt fact that young black males commit violent and senseless crimes far out of proportion to their percentage of the population.
I seriously thinking about starting my own business with a friend of mine. That friend of mine is a black man. We have worked together for many years, and are even writing a book together. I luv the guy to pieces and he and his wife have spent many hours in our home, playing cards and just having a good time.
But anyway, he says the same thing about certain areas of town. The exact same thing. He is under no illusions. So one thing I am saying is, GM, this is not all about racism and seeing bigotry in every thing. No, it is about simple concrete facts of life and stats.
If you truly want the the image of many young black males to change from the "stereotype" of being something to be feared when they come into a 7-11 store late at night, for instance?
Then only the black-community can change that. Why don't you kick their a$$es, instead of defending punks and thugs and gangtas that mindlessly listen to "music" that glorifies violence and crime and hating whitey, and degrading their own women?
GreenMariner? You are obviously an intelligent person, so let's be honest about it all. That is something that this country sorely lacks in terms of discussion about racial crime rates. So many are afraid to speak honestly...
I make no bones about that I am a paleo-Southern conservative and oppose even certain parts of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. That is, to say, I believe any private business, black, white, asian, hispanic, should have the right to hire, fire, serve, whoever they want. And I will repeat that.
I say this because I don't want anyone to get the idea I am one of those pathetic "neo-cons" who slobbers all over the MLK holiday and gets accused (sometimes rightfully) of hypocricy.
Anyway, back to being honest about it all. It is a sad but blunt fact that one of the biggest single factors of just how dangerous is an area to live, is the percentage of blacks in the area. You speak of blacks fleeing violent neighborhoods. And you are right! But where do they go? They go to mostly white and/or asian areas. It is also a blunt fact that young black males commit violent and senseless crimes far out of proportion to their percentage of the population.
I seriously thinking about starting my own business with a friend of mine. That friend of mine is a black man. We have worked together for many years, and are even writing a book together. I luv the guy to pieces and he and his wife have spent many hours in our home, playing cards and just having a good time.
But anyway, he says the same thing about certain areas of town. The exact same thing. He is under no illusions. So one thing I am saying is, GM, this is not all about racism and seeing bigotry in every thing. No, it is about simple concrete facts of life and stats.
If you truly want the the image of many young black males to change from the "stereotype" of being something to be feared when they come into a 7-11 store late at night, for instance?
Then only the black-community can change that. Why don't you kick their a$$es, instead of defending punks and thugs and gangtas that mindlessly listen to "music" that glorifies violence and crime and hating whitey, and degrading their own women?
There is a good reason people don't want to speak. Lack of trust. I think many Blacks don't want to discuss it because in many cases, there are people who only speak of this situation in terms of "Blacks are a problem", or try to use "statistics" to basically attack Blacks. And alot of Blacks do not want to deal with that. It isn't a matter of just speaking about it, but the reasons and the manner of speaking about it.
And political is where you and me differ. I feel that sometimes there are certain things that should be done. I don't have any problems with the Civil Rights legislation because I tend to think it in terms of "what I can do now", and "what I couldn't do back then"?
I understand you live in Texas. There is a suburb of Houston called Missouri City. Blacks make up a majority of the population. It's a high income area with a low crime rate, below the nation average. It also has one of the highest rates of 2 parent households in the USA. Perhaps this high rates of violence are symptomatic of other problems. Alot of thes crimes are mainly committed against other Blacks. I'm not an expert, but I do know, from having a father who grew up in a rough area, that there is more to this than meets the eye. I never once denied that there are high levels of crime in predominantly Black areas. However, I do not believe that race is the biggest indicator on this. Why is it that in the residential areas of Cascade Heights, in Atlanta, are predominantly Black and don't have a high crime rate? This is considered a wealthy area and alot of wealthy Blacks live there. I can't live there because the cost of living would get me. I've personally spoken to a Black woman myself who grew up in Atlanta, who lived in a safe, middle class Black neighborhood in the 1980s. Everyone she knew went to college. Sure, there are issues, but think about this. The Black middle class has gotten larger since the 1960s, but there aren't very many middle class Black areas. Perhaps a major reason(not the entire reason, as I know it is a variety of reasons) why many predominantly Black areas have issues with crime. The Black middle class is often non-existent there. The educated are often non-existent there.
And as for "facts of life", answer this. How do those facts of life help me, someone who doesn't live up to any of those stereotypes? I'm not the one causing problems. Why should I suffer? What do I get from it?
And something else to consider. I know a few Black people that have. They get laughed at by those very thugs, punks, and gangsters. Many people have called them out and they don't listen. Something you really don't understand. Why are you saying "you" as if you believe this is personally MY fault? I was raised mainly in the suburbs. I wasn't raised in a high crime area. I didn't have anything to do with why some people behave the way they do. I haven't defended their actions either.
The OP's post reeks of sarcasm and spite. I agree w/ another poster who stated his emphasis on MLK in the introduction. Why the need to mention MLK three times in the title?? I'm just as sickened by this shooting as any white person would be. W/ that being said, I'm glad that I was not there when that happened. But again, I wanna know why is it that when blacks commit a crime, the entire black race is condemned but when a white person commits a crime, the general white population can distance themselves from the offender and label him or her as a criminal? Why are we as blacks expected to control every action of every person who happen to be the same race as us? IT HAS NOTHING TO ****ING DO WITH ME. I CAN'T BE IN EVERY BLACK PERSON'S BRAIN! I can speak about it all I want, but I don't have mind control powers. Plus they aren't puppets. Explaining this to some of you is like pulling teeth.
Thanks for an intelligent, civil, and articulate reply, even though (naturally), I take issue with many of your points. In fact, rather than address them by broken up quotes, let me just reply with a few "bullet points", in come ways starting from the bottom of your own letter.
1. First of all, either I didn't explain well enough or you misunderstood, as in I never meant to imply that "you" (in the first-person sense), were "personally" responsible for the dysfuctions and out-of-proportion percentage of violent crimes committed by young black males. No, I was talking in a larger collective sense of that so many in the black-community -- and especially so-called "black-leaders" like Jesse and Al -- make excuses for them, and actually profit off of it. Others simply reflexively blame it all on "white racism"...with the overt of the long past, or what they personally, perpetually, see as still existing today.
And to be honest, GM? Your posts have a strong and persistent ring of the latter. And you know? Maybe if I were black I might feel the same way. Who knows? About the only thing I can say is that this constant cry that the past is responsible for the present in terms of "racism and discrimination" is rapidly wearing out in terms of excuses for black crime rates. Many people are scared to say it aloud, but it is there.
2. The role that "race" plays in terms of propensity to commit crimes, as opposed to economic factors? I don't know if anyone really knows the answer to this one. It is a volitile subject that, as you indicate, not many are willing to discuss openly and honestly. I do know -- and this is easily verified by a little research and official stats -- that majority black neighborhoods -- all other things being equal in terms of socio-economic factors -- still rank highest in terms of crime rates, as compared to other racial/ethnic groups. I don't take the slightest bit of glee in presenting that, but ignoring a truth doesn't make it go away, nor make it "racist".
3. Have you ever read the "Shaker Heights Study". It is interesting...
4. I did do a bit of looking into what you presented concerning Missouri City, Texas, and Cascade Heights in Atlanta, Georgia. Missouri City was indeed a plurality black (41%), and did show a relatively low crime rate as compared to the rest of Texas. What was unclear however, was where most of the crimes that occured there, did occur. As in, in the mostly black areas of town, in the white, asian, etc?
So far as Cascade Heights (Atlanta, GA) goes? That was not so ambiguous. They are about 90% black, and got a solid score of "F" (on the old teacher grading scale) when it came to crime rates. So I am not sure what figures you are looking at when you recommended it. Anyway, here is the link:
Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site
5. Just to sum up, my only real intent here is to just express some blunt concerns and absolutely reject any contention that there is any such thing as "white guilt" because of what others may have done 200 years ago.
Further, again, the ONLY thing that is going to change the perception of young black males -- especially as a group -- being something to be feared and dreaded -- especially late at night on the streets or swaggering into a convenience store at the same hour -- is going to be when the black community gets fed up with it enough to do something about it, themselves. Otherwise? That "stereotype" is going to persist...and for good reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
There is a good reason people don't want to speak. Lack of trust. I think many Blacks don't want to discuss it because in many cases, there are people who only speak of this situation in terms of "Blacks are a problem", or try to use "statistics" to basically attack Blacks. And alot of Blacks do not want to deal with that. It isn't a matter of just speaking about it, but the reasons and the manner of speaking about it.
And political is where you and me differ. I feel that sometimes there are certain things that should be done. I don't have any problems with the Civil Rights legislation because I tend to think it in terms of "what I can do now", and "what I couldn't do back then"?
I understand you live in Texas. There is a suburb of Houston called Missouri City. Blacks make up a majority of the population. It's a high income area with a low crime rate, below the nation average. It also has one of the highest rates of 2 parent households in the USA. Perhaps this high rates of violence are symptomatic of other problems. Alot of thes crimes are mainly committed against other Blacks. I'm not an expert, but I do know, from having a father who grew up in a rough area, that there is more to this than meets the eye. I never once denied that there are high levels of crime in predominantly Black areas. However, I do not believe that race is the biggest indicator on this. Why is it that in the residential areas of Cascade Heights, in Atlanta, are predominantly Black and don't have a high crime rate? This is considered a wealthy area and alot of wealthy Blacks live there. I can't live there because the cost of living would get me. I've personally spoken to a Black woman myself who grew up in Atlanta, who lived in a safe, middle class Black neighborhood in the 1980s. Everyone she knew went to college. Sure, there are issues, but think about this. The Black middle class has gotten larger since the 1960s, but there aren't very many middle class Black areas. Perhaps a major reason(not the entire reason, as I know it is a variety of reasons) why many predominantly Black areas have issues with crime. The Black middle class is often non-existent there. The educated are often non-existent there.
And as for "facts of life", answer this. How do those facts of life help me, someone who doesn't live up to any of those stereotypes? I'm not the one causing problems. Why should I suffer? What do I get from it?
And something else to consider. I know a few Black people that have. They get laughed at by those very thugs, punks, and gangsters. Many people have called them out and they don't listen. Something you really don't understand. Why are you saying "you" as if you believe this is personally MY fault? I was raised mainly in the suburbs. I wasn't raised in a high crime area. I didn't have anything to do with why some people behave the way they do. I haven't defended their actions either.
Wow. Sad. The black community really needs to pull it together and do something about thug violence.
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