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Baking and selling a cake is not homosexual activity. Buying and eating a cake is not homosexual activity. Baking for profit is not a religious act - it's a commercial one.
I agree. As a Christian, this issue already does and will continue to further challenge our understanding of the nature of God and the application of Godly principles in life. God allows us to choose. For example, every day we as Christians will spend our money at department stores that sell clothing that is not modest and/or sell "sexy" clothes to people who are living together before marriage. Many Christians work at these stores. Some may even know couples who live together. Do we refuse to help them? Do we refuse to shop at these stores? No. Because we understand that the store provides certain goods and what people do with them is between them and God.
From what I understand, the cake was more personalized, but it really comes down to the choice of the women involved here. The man is providing them with what they desire. They are responsible for their actions. He is not involved in homosexual activity by making the cake, neither is he promoting such activity. He would be making the cake for two people who intend to be involved in a homosexual wedding because they requested the service.
However, I do feel for him because he is likely quite sincere in his belief that making the cake is wrong. I am a person who is very respectful of the beliefs of others. Upon learning that a business is Muslim, I would not request that someone bake me a cake that says "Jesus is God" on it, especially if the person states that they feel uncomfortable. But everyone is different...
. Upon learning that a business is Muslim, I would not request that someone bake me a cake that says "Jesus is God" on it, especially if the person states that they feel uncomfortable. But everyone is different...
Right, that would be cruel. Anyone doing that intentionally is a bully.
Let's be clear. If the lesbians walked into the bakery and simply bought some cookies or a loaf of bread, I'm sure the owner wouldn't have thrown them out or told them not to return. HOWEVER, the lesbian wanted to CONTRACT the baker to make a lesbian wedding cake. The owner does not WANT to make a lesbian wedding cake and refuses to enter into the contract. That is his right as a private business owner. He could refuse to enter into a wedding cake contract for a heterosexual couple he found annoying! It is his right.
The gays should simply go find another baker. Dare I ask how a lesbian wedding cake differs from a heterosexual wedding cake? Make your own damn cake-topper!
Sure, the baker could have found a different reason to refuse making the cake. He could have lied and said he only makes wedding cakes for couples who are over 7-feet tall. He told the truth. Whether it's buying a donut or 'contracting' for services, his refusal to make a cake for two brides will be found illegal.
I agree. As a Christian, this issue already does and will continue to further challenge our understanding of the nature of God and the application of Godly principles in life. God allows us to choose. For example, every day we as Christians will spend our money at department stores that sell clothing that is not modest and/or sell "sexy" clothes to people who are living together before marriage. Many Christians work at these stores. Some may even know couples who live together. Do we refuse to help them? Do we refuse to shop at these stores? No. Because we understand that the store provides certain goods and what people do with them is between them and God.
From what I understand, the cake was more personalized, but it really comes down to the choice of the women involved here. The man is providing them with what they desire. They are responsible for their actions. He is not involved in homosexual activity by making the cake, neither is he promoting such activity. He would be making the cake for two people who intend to be involved in a homosexual wedding because they requested the service.
However, I do feel for him because he is likely quite sincere in his belief that making the cake is wrong. I am a person who is very respectful of the beliefs of others. Upon learning that a business is Muslim, I would not request that someone bake me a cake that says "Jesus is God" on it, especially if the person states that they feel uncomfortable. But everyone is different...
Great post. And this illustrates a very good point. We are all responsible for our own actions and only our own. We can't and shouldn't go around trying to be the "moral police". The baker, while I feel he has his rights to ruse, could have very easily taken your stance here, and realized its just a cake, and he is not participating in something he feels is wrong. Its like you said here very well. The same baker probably shops in stores owned and run by people who don't fit his mold exactly (how can he or anyone possibly know?) as to what is right "by god". So by doing so he indirectly supports "immoral" behavior by his own standards. Same applies for this cake making.
Thanks for an open minded and thoughtful view. You just proved that not all Christians are hard core and judgmental. More views like yours will really help foster a better view of Christians when it comes to tolerance and more importantly, self accountability. This forum was beginning to make me think all "Christians" were becoming very intolerant and becoming the moral police of others.
Great post. And this illustrates a very good point. We are all responsible for our own actions and only our own. We can't and shouldn't go around trying to be the "moral police". The baker, while I feel he has his rights to ruse, could have very easily taken your stance here, and realized its just a cake, and he is not participating in something he feels is wrong. Its like you said here very well. The same baker probably shops in stores owned and run by people who don't fit his mold exactly (how can he or anyone possibly know?) as to what is right "by god". So by doing so he indirectly supports "immoral" behavior by his own standards. Same applies for this cake making.
Thanks for an open minded and thoughtful view. You just proved that not all Christians are hard core and judgmental. More views like yours will really help foster a better view of Christians when it comes to tolerance and more importantly, self accountability. This forum was beginning to make me think all "Christians" were becoming very intolerant and becoming the moral police of others.
How far do you feel his right to refuse extends? Are you against anti-discrimination laws in general, or just anti-discrimination laws that include sexual orientation?
Great post. And this illustrates a very good point. We are all responsible for our own actions and only our own. We can't and shouldn't go around trying to be the "moral police". The baker, while I feel he has his rights to ruse, could have very easily taken your stance here, and realized its just a cake, and he is not participating in something he feels is wrong. Its like you said here very well. The same baker probably shops in stores owned and run by people who don't fit his mold exactly (how can he or anyone possibly know?) as to what is right "by god". So by doing so he indirectly supports "immoral" behavior by his own standards. Same applies for this cake making.
Thanks for an open minded and thoughtful view. You just proved that not all Christians are hard core and judgmental. More views like yours will really help foster a better view of Christians when it comes to tolerance and more importantly, self accountability. This forum was beginning to make me think all "Christians" were becoming very intolerant and becoming the moral police of others.
You're welcome. Thank you for understanding that views differ, even among Christians. The issue is tough because of the treatment/application of Biblical principles by so many within Christianity today. Within mainstream Christianity today, there is almost a "culture of playing God" when it comes to certain sins - abortion or homosexuality in particular. It is as though many feel it is our job to stop people from making decisions against Biblical law/principles, but it is not. The Bible itself says "Choose you this day whom you will serve," not you choose for other people.
It's importantto note that the only time Christ put a serious halt to wrongdoing in Scripture was when the wrongdoing was done in the temple. There is where people must adhere to Christian principles as it is God's domain (within churches). But over and over in the Bible, God allowed people to choose right or wrong because we must choose our paths. It's not like when we open our mouths to say something wrong, an angel runs down and clamps it shut. LOL. Similarly, Christians have no business trying to do the same to others who don't even believe as we do.
If we truly believe that God will do as promised in Scripture, our responsibility is to live by Christian principles ourselves. That's the best witness we have. But honestly, that's not how many feel on such matters, and it does more harm than good.
How far do you feel his right to refuse extends? Are you against anti-discrimination laws in general, or just anti-discrimination laws that include sexual orientation?
I've been an advocate for gay right for decades, because I've always believed the gay community deserves every every right everyone else has. I've strongly advocated for equality. Same goes for any minority, regardless of sex race, religion etc. I grew up that way.
However, in my option its becoming a very fuzzy line between everyone's rights, and individual freedoms of business owners. I whole heartedly wish myself that no one would discriminate. To me, discrimination is the abomination/crime what have you. But I wonder openly these days if business owners should have control of their service..and if the discrimination bites them in the @ss then that's their own fault. Person accountability. I would bet that for every 1 jerk who discriminates, there are 5 others more than willing to offer their services. Maybe we should let the old school ways die out on their own, I pretty much think they would, because they would lose a lot of customers these days.
I do grapple with this back and forth because I believe strongly in equality, but also in less govt interference.
I've been an advocate for gay right for decades, because I've always believed the gay community deserves every every right everyone else has. I've strongly advocated for equality. Same goes for any minority, regardless of sex race, religion etc. I grew up that way.
However, in my option its becoming a very fuzzy line between everyone's rights, and individual freedoms of business owners. I whole heartedly wish myself that no one would discriminate. To me, discrimination is the abomination/crime what have you. But I wonder openly these days if business owners should have control of their service..and if the discrimination bites them in the @ss then that's their own fault. Person accountability. I would bet that for every 1 jerk who discriminates, there are 5 others more than willing to offer their services. Maybe we should let the old school ways die out on their own, I pretty much think they would, because they would lose a lot of customers these days.
I do grapple with this back and forth because I believe strongly in equality, but also in less govt interference.
Everyone discriminates countless times a day, every day of their lives. Nothing could be more normal and necessary to the fundamental functioning of our daily lives.
What is an abomination is the idea that any individual, group, or government has any business attempting to control the thoughts or opinions of others.
But I wonder openly these days if business owners should have control of their service..and if the discrimination bites them in the @ss then that's their own fault. Person accountability. I would bet that for every 1 jerk who discriminates, there are 5 others more than willing to offer their services. Maybe we should let the old school ways die out on their own, I pretty much think they would, because they would lose a lot of customers these days.
I do grapple with this back and forth because I believe strongly in equality, but also in less govt interference.
Right, give your money to someone else and tell everyone you know what happened, but suing and running to the government to punish the business is for jerks and bullies.
Right, give your money to someone else and tell everyone you know what happened, but suing and running to the government to punish the business is for jerks and bullies.
So, what you are saying is that if someone violates a state statute (colloquially known as a "law"), you should not report it, because only "jerks and bullies" believe holding people/businesses accountable?
Interesting.
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