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Old 02-22-2013, 05:52 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,581 posts, read 9,779,270 times
Reputation: 4174

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Quote:
Originally Posted by plannine View Post
If the items in amendment II were separate items, they would have been separated by semi-colons, but they are not, they are separated by commas, which means they are the elements in a series. All apply together as one, with the first element being the controlling one. There are not independent clauses in the Amendment.
The Unabridged Second Amendment

by J. Neil Schulman

(reprinted with author's permission, see below)

If you wanted to know all about the Big Bang, you'd ring up Carl Sagan, right? And if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call would be Norman Schwarzkopf, no question about it. But who would you call if you wanted the top expert on American usage, to tell you the meaning of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution?

That was the question I asked A.C. Brocki, editorial coordinator of the Los Angeles Unified School District and formerly senior editor at Houghton Mifflin Publishers — who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on English usage in the Los Angeles school system. Mr. Brocki told me to get in touch with Roy Copperud, a retired professor of journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of American Usage and Style: The Consensus.

A little research lent support to Brocki's opinion of Professor Copperud's expertise.

Roy Copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a a distinguished 17-year career teaching journalism at USC. Since 1952, Copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for Editor and Publisher, a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field.

He's on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam Webster's Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud's fifth book on usage, American Usage and Style: The Consensus, has been in continuous print from Van Nostrand Reinhold since 1981, and is the winner of the Association of American Publisher's Humanities Award.

That sounds like an expert to me.

After a brief telephone call to Professor Copperud in which I introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why I was interested, I sent the following letter:

"I am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in English usage, to analyze the text of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, and extract the intent from the text.

"The text of the Second Amendment is, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"The debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State', is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"I would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. Further, since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the Second Amendment, I ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation, and even be willing to testify under oath to support, if necessary."

My letter framed several questions about the test of the Second Amendment, then concluded:

"I realize that I am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter. I am doing so because, as a citizen, I believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the Second Amendment. While I ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results, I ask that you do this because of that importance."

After several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the Second Amendment, gun control, or any other political subject, Professor Copperud sent me the follow analysis (into which I have inserted my questions for the sake of clarity):

[Copperud:] "The words 'A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,' contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitutes a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying 'militia,' which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject 'the right', verb 'shall'). The to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for maintaining a militia.

"In reply to your numbered questions:

[Schulman:] "(1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to 'a well-regulated militia'?"

[Copperud:] "(1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people."

[Schulman:] "(2) Is 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms' granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right 'shall not be infringed'?"

[Copperud:] "(2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia."

[Schulman:] "(3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia, is, in fact necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed' null and void?"

[Copperud:] "(3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence."

[Schulman:] "(4) Does the clause 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,' grant a right to the government to place conditions on the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms,' or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?"

[Copperud:] "(4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia."

[Schulman:] "(5) Which of the following does the phrase 'well-regulated militia' mean: 'well-equipped', 'well-organized,' 'well-drilled,' 'well-educated,' or 'subject to regulations of a superior authority'?"

[Copperud:] "(5) The phrase means 'subject to regulations of a superior authority;' this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military."

[Schulman:] "(6) (If at all possible, I would ask you to take account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written 200 years ago, but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated."

[Copperud:] "To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary tot he security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.'

[Schulman:] "As a 'scientific control' on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second Amendment to the following sentence,
"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed.'

"My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,

"(1) Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other, identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?; and

"(2) Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict 'the right of the people to keep and read Books' only to 'a well-educated electorate' — for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?"

[Copperud:] "(1) Your 'scientific control' sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.

"(2) There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation."

Professor Copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion."

So now we have been told by one of the top experts on American usage what many knew all along: the Constitution of the United States unconditionally protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all governments formed under the Constitution from abridging that right.

As I write this, the attempted coup against constitutional government in the Soviet Union has failed, apparently because the will of the people in that part of the world to be free from capricious tyranny is stronger than the old guard's desire to maintain a monopoly on dictatorial power.

And here in the United States, elected lawmakers, judges, and appointed officials who are pledged to defend the Constitution of the United States ignore, marginalize, or prevaricate about the Second Amendment routinely. American citizens are put in American prisons for carrying arms, owning arms of forbidden sorts, or failing to satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding the owning and carrying of firearms — all of which is an abridgement of the unconditional right of the people to keep and bear arms, guaranteed by the Constitution.
And even the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), staunch defender of the rest of the Bill of Rights, stands by and does nothing.

It seems it is up to those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms to preserve that right. No one else will. No one else can. Will we beg our elected representatives not to take away our rights, and continue regarding them as representing us if they do? Will we continue obeying judges who decide that the Second Amendment doesn't mean what it says it means but means whatever they say it means in their Orwellian doublespeak?

Or will be simply keep and bear the arms of our choice, as the Constitution of the United States promises us we can, and pledge that we will defend that promise with our lives, our fortuned, and our sacred honor?

(C) 1991 by The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation. Informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized provided the author, The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation are credited. All other rights reserved.

Last edited by Little-Acorn; 02-22-2013 at 06:12 PM..
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Old 02-22-2013, 05:54 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,581 posts, read 9,779,270 times
Reputation: 4174
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmjv View Post
The OP says that said mad man should be able to keep his gun, loaded, upon his person up until the time he's found guilty.
The OP says nothing of the kind, of course.

Nice try.

Read.

Reading is key.
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:17 PM
 
2,836 posts, read 3,494,717 times
Reputation: 1406
Tell me, Little Acorn: What Smith & Wesson revolvers can you buy in California?
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Soldotna
2,256 posts, read 2,129,740 times
Reputation: 1078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell Phillips View Post
Tell me, Little Acorn: What Smith & Wesson revolvers can you buy in California?
Many... As long as it is CA compliant if you want to stay legal.

If legalities aren't your concern then any gun is eminently purchase able.
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Old 02-22-2013, 07:41 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,581 posts, read 9,779,270 times
Reputation: 4174
It is becoming apparent that the Framers did indeed intend the 2nd amendment to be every bit as inclusive as it seems. They intended government to have NO say, zero, zip, nada, in deciding who can and can't own and carry a gun or other such weapon. The only time a govt official (such as a cop who encounters a criminals using a gun to do illegal things like threaten, injure, or kill people) can take away that person's gun, is when he's pretty sure a jury will grant him an exception to the 2nd amendment's flat ban ("jury nullification"). No one else can grant ANY exception to the 2nd amendment's flat ban on govt restrictions.

Sometimes it will be very obvious, such as in the exmaple I gave in the OP (a cop in a restaurant confronting a murderer who just shot people). Sometimes it's a lot less obvious, such as when a person wants to go into a post office to mail a letter and has his gun in a holster while he does it. Some governments have made laws saying a law-abiding citizens, threatening or harming no one, still cannot bring a gun into a Post Office. Those laws are, in fact, violating the 2nd amendment, since the 2nd does not allow ANY "reasonable restrictions" for government laws. If a cop takes a gun away from the person walking into the Post Office simply to mail a letter, will a jury grant the cop an exception from the 2nd amendment's ban?
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:41 PM
 
1,596 posts, read 1,158,397 times
Reputation: 178
Bill of Rights - VOID Posters from Zazzle.com
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:02 AM
 
7,300 posts, read 6,729,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymouseX View Post
There are many laws that violate many constitutional rights.

Hell, in VA, the state has a preemption law barring any lower govt from enacting gun laws but many localities still have gun laws on the books forcing people to slog through the courts to force the govts to comply with the law...

That's why people are the final arbiter because you can't trust the government.

Ever...
And there are no people in government, right? Government isn't made up of people, of course not.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Soldotna
2,256 posts, read 2,129,740 times
Reputation: 1078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saritaschihuahua View Post
And there are no people in government, right? Government isn't made up of people, of course not.
Assinine statement.

"People" refers to all people but people in fact acting in that capacity at that time are the govt and not people.

What, should judges allow illegally obtained evidence that a police officer got because he is a citizen just like you?

Seriously seritasratdog... Take the dumb arguments, insults and other various shenanigans elsewhere...
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:36 AM
 
4,738 posts, read 4,432,562 times
Reputation: 2485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
The 4th amendment bans searches and seizure, but not all of them: It specifically names unreasonable searches and seizures.

The 5th amendment says that no one can be jailed or executed etc... but makes an exception: unless there is "due process of law".

Even the 13th amendment that prohibits slavery or involuntary servitude, makes an exception: "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted."

But the 2nd amendment, which forbids government from taking away or restricting our right to keep and bear arms, is conspicuously devoid of any such language. As written, it permits NO exceptions or "reasonable restrictions". Period.

Why?
A lot of blah blah. . .and I don't have the patience to see if the blind squirrel finds an acorn.

The 2nd amendment was due to the fact that the united states started without a standing army, and we only had people/militia to fight back invaders. Any state who banned guns could leave itself a bunch of people who can not fight in wars. . .something the early country wanted to avoid.

Not really relevant now, and I think the supreme court was flat out wrong in the DC handgun case. . .just stupidity really.


And you can't take up arms against the US, that isn't what it was for either. If you think John Addams now has to be shot. . that is BS. The freedom is against enemies of the state, not the state. There has been plenty of insurrections in the united states and not one said "well its okay, its not treason, we were fighting tyranny"
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Old 02-24-2013, 05:48 AM
 
7,300 posts, read 6,729,651 times
Reputation: 2916
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnonymouseX View Post
Assinine statement.

"People" refers to all people but people in fact acting in that capacity at that time are the govt and not people.

What, should judges allow illegally obtained evidence that a police officer got because he is a citizen just like you?

Seriously seritasratdog... Take the dumb arguments, insults and other various shenanigans elsewhere...
Oh BS. I'm sick and tired of you and other teabaggers pretending the government is not made up of Americans. As to what people are allowed to do or not do, there are limitations, but that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that you teabaggers pretend the government is not made up of Americans. It is made up of Americans, just as are unions and corporations. I know d_man_ed well why you teabaggers do that.
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