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Tom, you should have posted this in the Politics and Other Controversies where idiotic arguments are the lingua franca.
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Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70
When we are looking at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I think its very striking how even though Israel defeated the Islamic nations and the Palestinians in every exchange, they always held back.
For those more accustomed to the intelligent debates and post (see grandstander, TonyT, or NJgoat as just three exceptional examples, I suggest the recent movie by Israeli director Dror Moreh, "The Gatekeepers" and while I have yet to see the film the interviews I have heard snippets of interviews with Moreh and the six former directors of Israel's secret service the Shin Bet discuss the fact that while they have won every battle overt and otherwise against the Palestinians that they will ultimately lose the state of Israel if they cannot win a successful peace. And by peace, it is my understanding, a two state solution.
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If the Israelis rained hundreds of missiles into Gaza for every one missile fired (like if for every missile that hits Israel, 10 or 20 city blocks are completely pounded to rubble in Gaza City or Ramallah and if every known terrorist site is pounded by airstrikes) then maybe the Palestinians will learn their lesson, and they may lose their zeal for terrorism and warfare.
What Israel would win is world wide condemnation and political isolation. It would become a pariah nation losing whatever shred of moral authority that it still holds. It is a lesson that the U.S. had to learn in Vietnam and one that South African and Rodesia came to understand as well.
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We also need to be targeting the Taliban remmants in Afghanistan more many of them are allowed to run amok in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
There is huge gap in your understanding of the history of asymmetrical warfare, counter-insurgency and wars of national liberation - a period roughly 30 years in length. So if you would please look over Operation Linebacker and Linebacker II the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and then come back so that we can have a real history discussion and how such operations might be relevant to current events.
You can't wage war on a concept and ever achieve victory. The "War on Terror" is just as empty and ultimately pointless as the "War on Drugs". You can limit the terror, you can slow it down, you can occasionally kill part of it, etc. but you can never defeat it because it is not a rational actor in state politics. The simple fact that we cannot identify who the enemy is other then an amorphous generality is proof that it is not something we can fight.
Some enemies are defeated with military arms (Ultima Ratio Regum), others are defeated with political maneuvering. If one wants to defeat the amorphous blob that is Islamic fundamentalism, then one must determine what causes people to embrace such a belief and then rectify those causes. Unfortunately, I fear it will be a case of "we have met the enemy and he is us". It's no secret that American foreign policy choices have had a large influence on the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Until we decide to change then we will continue to deal with it and consider it part of the "cost of doing business".
Ultimately, the issue is not parallel to war, but sociology. What causes crime? Hint, it's not criminals. Crime is considered to be primarily driven by poverty. If you want to eliminate crime, eliminate poverty. Since eliminating poverty is almost impossible, we use punishment to discourage people from committing crime, put more police on the street, etc. Basically, we wage a "war" on crime. However, even if we instituted the most brutal punishment possible, simply summarily executing anyone for anyone crime whatsoever...there would still be crime because the underlying causes are not addressed.
This is how Islamic fundamentalism works. You don't eliminate it by eliminating Islamic fundamentalists. You eliminate it by addressing the underlying reasons people embrace Islamic fundamentalism. However, just like eliminating poverty is beyond the national will, eliminating the underlying causes of Islamic fundamentalism is counter to the interests of the nation at this time.
There is a HUGE difference in what occurred during the time of WWII and now. Back then secrets weren't ballyhooed across the world. Leaks would prevail to the point of why bother? It would be a hopeless disaster. Patriotism? Tell me another one.
We saw the correct template for declaring total war against terrorism in the Bin Laden raid. Teams of highly-trained special forces going after and destroying known terrorists and their cells, along with gathering intelligence. As we have seen with the Arab Spring, just changing governments does not always produce US/West friendly results. Fight smarter, not harder.
You can't wage war on a concept and ever achieve victory. The "War on Terror" is just as empty and ultimately pointless as the "War on Drugs". .
Good points to raise. I thought that "The War On Terror" was a very unfortunate choice of identification since "terror" isn't an enemy at all, it is a tactic. Our current conflict is with fundamentalist Islam, not with the idea of terror.
Was WW I the "War Against Artillery" or was WW II the "War Against Aerial Bombing?"
Terrorism is a tactic traditionally employed by the less powerful side in a martial conflict, chosen not because they are especially cruel or heartless, rather because they cannot hope to match the opposition in conventional armaments and force size.
The American Revolution began with the terrorist tactics of the Sons of Liberty in Massachusetts. They represented mob compulsion and went about sacking or burning the homes of British colonial officials who were guilty of "crimes" such as trying to collect taxes or catch smugglers. These were not new tactics, they were borrowing from the traditions of Clodius and other Roman populists who used street mobs to intimidate Senators and Counsels in the final years of the Republic.
Terrorism is justified in the minds of those who employ such tactics by the larger terror and immense advantages of governments and armies. Its morality hinges on which side you happen to represent.
Our current conflict is with fundamentalist Islam, not with the idea of terror.
What Islamic fundamentalist did to you, why are you in conflict with them? Explain. Have they encircled USA with 100 military bases? Have they starved, bombed, killed hundreds of thousands of Americans? Have they installed puppet governments is all but 2 or 3 American states? Do they extract American mineral resources for cheap by bribing the "elites" (they installed and support in the first place)? Are they responsible for the numerous military coups and Civil Wars on the American soil? Have they killed democratically elected American leaders to install their puppet governments instead?
What did they do to you personally? 9-11? Even according to the official government conspiracy theory, 9-11 perpetrators are anything but Islamic Fundamentalists they show on FOX, they had too much education, money, drinking, partying and sex for the Islamist taste.
What Islamic fundamentalist did to you, why are you in conflict with them? Explain. Have they encircled USA with 100 military bases? Have they starved, bombed, killed hundreds of thousands of Americans? Have they installed puppet governments is all but 2 or 3 American states? Do they extract American mineral resources for cheap by bribing the "elites" (they installed and support in the first place)? Are they responsible for the numerous military coups and Civil Wars on the American soil? Have they killed democratically elected American leaders to install their puppet governments instead?
What did they do to you personally? 9-11? Even according to the official government conspiracy theory, 9-11 perpetrators are anything but Islamic Fundamentalists they show on FOX, they had too much education, money, drinking, partying and sex for the Islamist taste.
I wrote "our conflict" as in the secular western nations and the fundamentalist Islamic organizations which have declared war on the west with the stated goal of eventual Islamic theocracy dominating all governments everywhere. I do not have a personal conflict with any particular Islamic fundamentalist apart from being a citizen of one of those nations upon whom they have declared war. I'm certainly against the idea of replacing our current form of government with a theocracy based on religious mythology, so I am indeed on the side which opposes this.
As for your list of American offenses, that is no more or less meaningful than a list of American positive contributions to the world, including the Islamic world. If all you are going to examine is the bad, then your conclusions were reached before you began your study, weren't they?
It might be a good exercise for you to spend some time thinking about the other side of things. Do you see the western presence in the middle east as 100 % evil or do you concede that the Islamic world has gained any benefits? If so, what do you think those benefits have been?
And try and focus on that last question, as in making an attempt to honestly answer it rather than simply providing us with a repeat of your above complaints....we already have them before us.
First, let me add a hearty "Hear, Hear", to the OP. We got where we are due to the proven superiority of free exchange of opinion and the free economies that make it possible. There is nothing close to a tested democracy within the Islamic world, and there won't be unless the moderates within Islam eliminate the nuts within their own ranks.
That's not likely anytime soon; more likely, two or more of the various strains of Seventh-Century fanatacism will have a falling out among themselves, as with Iran/Iraq thirty years ago. It's possible, this time around, that one of them, maybe both, will get their hands on a nuke, And quite frankly, if that happens, the best course of action for Israel, the United States, and all of Western civilization, would then be to quickly inflict as much further damage as possible on the military power (not the innocent civilians) of the "winner".
The Middle East isn't going to be ready for true democracy for a long time. Colonialism doesn't work and a provisional subjugation (as with Germany and Japan after World War II) isn't likely to work if, as in Vietnam. a large, ignorant, and irreconcilable insurgency remains active within the subjugated territory.
There is no real answer to this one. The germs at the bottom of the heap are going to keep fighting among themselves, and we don't have a clear picture, as yet, of how much potential for moderation and assimilation exists among the better-educated and more-motivated contingent of the Euro-Islamic diaspora.
But the vicious conduct of Islamic terrorism since 1948 gives me very little reason to hope, or to trust anybody. Israel is there to stay, and if any fanatic thinks otherwise, they will just have to be dealt with as a mortal enemy.
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 02-07-2013 at 04:36 PM..
I wrote "our conflict" as in the secular western nations and the fundamentalist Islamic organizations which have declared war on the west with the stated goal of eventual Islamic theocracy dominating all governments everywhere. I do not have a personal conflict with any particular Islamic fundamentalist apart from being a citizen of one of those nations upon whom they have declared war.
I'm not aware of any Islamic organization which has declared war on the west, are you? Name one. What kind of a war would that be? I'm just curious how those evil Islamist gonna fight secular west if most of the weapons Muslim countries have are either left overs from the Soviet era or they are Western made (mostly American)? USSR is no more and evil Islamist can't make even cartridges on their own. That's one mighty weird war on evil you imagined. Al-Qaeda? Nobody really knows if that name represents anything in terms of organization, it's most likely pure propaganda creation, in any case it's "Islamist" in the same sense as Boy scouts are Christian.
Christian fundamentalists have a stated goal of the "Christian Nation" and dominion. Rapture, apocalypse, predestination and such are the staples of their worldviews. Christian fundamentalists consistently occupy the highest positions of power in the USA (power is something that Islamists could only dream about). Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party. Don't you want to fight Christian fundamentalism first? They have power already, don't you feel unease about Apocalypse & Rupture nuts controlling government and the most powerful military on Earth?
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I'm certainly against the idea of replacing our current form of government with a theocracy based on religious mythology, so I am indeed on the side which opposes this.
As for your list of American offenses, that is no more or less meaningful than a list of American positive contributions to the world, including the Islamic world. If all you are going to examine is the bad, then your conclusions were reached before you began your study, weren't they?
Instead of generalities, you could type long list of the good that USA contributed to the Islamic world. Why would you waste an opportunity? That good should be mighty heavy to overweight hundreds of thousands of the charred & torn apart corpses, not speaking of starvation, disease, social collapse etc. that US government is directly responsible for.
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