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Brian - apparently you don't understand the difference between murder and self defense.
Plus, you've got the scenario bass ackwards. As a Christian, I have absolutely no intention of instigating a shootout or of murdering another person. All I'm interested in doing is protecting myself and innocent people from a violent offender.
I do believe that Jesus would approve of that. Nowhere in the bible is such an attitude condemned.
So then why did Jesus not defend himself from the Romans??
And what was all that talk about "love thy enemies?" Just good rhetoric? Nice philosophy?
No. All throughout the New Testament, the only ones getting killed were the ones walking in Love.
But go ahead a carry a gun. After all, if Jesus can't defend you, who can??
Why what? Why did he send them to places like India, Rome, and modern-day Eastern Europe, places where barbarians ruled and the law was non-existent? I don't know the answer to that.
Or, to any question of mine. Because your ideas are defined by your whims, assumptions that if Christ mentioned swords then he was asking them to be armed and ready. Nothing to do with fulfillment of prophecies, nothing to do with him being charged as a criminal.
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Why do I believe that there were robbers who would slit their throats without hesitation? That's a matter of historical fact. And no, I do not believe he was instructing his disciples be "loaded to the gills", ready to use force at the slightest provocation. He specifically scolded Peter for doing just that before healing the guard injured by Peter. There is a huge difference between being Jesus telling them to go "loaded to the gills" and suggesting they possess a weapon they could use for personal defense.
But, you actually believe He was promoting armament when the intent had NOTHING to do with it.
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Why were two swords enough? Robbers are lazy (otherwise they'd get a job) and generally don't go after armed groups…
Robbers? Luke 22:36-37
He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
Obviously, you either stopped reading after verse 36 or failed to comprehend verse 37. Your preachers haven’t done a decent job either.
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I disagree that it's hypocritical. Jesus had a reason to die on the cross, but he wanted his followers to live to spread His word...
It would be hypocritical to preach not just tolerance but going farther than that, to pray for them, and then also preach against arming self against them. It would be hypocritical to suggest living with the sword, while also preaching that those who live by the sword, die with it. It would be hypocritical to preach that turning the other cheek is the right thing to do while also suggesting to retaliate when someone harms you.
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Speaking of "evil", let's look at the entire passage you're referring to. It's from the Sermon on the mount:
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38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And then chop their head off with your sword?
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44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
And it is why you should be armed and ready.
Gandhi had it right:“Your Christians are so unlike your Christ”.
So then why did Jesus not defend himself from the Romans??
You are lucky that I have a little time to burn, because that's the only reason I'm even bothering to discuss this with you. Your grasp on theology - or rather lack thereof - is abysmal.
According to mainstream Christian theology, Jesus came to earth SPECIFICALLY to die as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Why would He "protect Himself" when His GOAL was to be arrested, tried, convicted, and crucified?
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And what was all that talk about "love thy enemies?" Just good rhetoric? Nice philosophy?
You have to put this in context. You're pulling random verses, out of context, and trying to apply them universally. That's akin to my grown kids thinking that they can never walk out into a street because I told them when they were four, "Stay out of the street."
Context. Context. Audience. Historical setting. You know - common sense in other words.
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But go ahead a carry a gun. After all, if Jesus can't defend you, who can??
I am really repeating myself here, so this is truly the last time I'm going to point out this blatant flaw in your reasoning.
Christian teachings do not teach personal irresponsibility. Of course, we believe in God's omnipotent wisdom and we believe He has a plan for our lives. This does NOT mean we behave recklessly or irresponsibly because "God is going to protect us." The bible is chock full of advice and edicts stressing that we are to live responsible lives and that we are to safeguard ourselves, our families, and the property that we own. We are to be good stewards of the blessings in our lives, but we are also supposed to be willing to give them up - to serve God, not to line the pockets of criminals.
Using your flawed logic, I could just quit wearing seatbelts, chain smoke, and walk out in front of 18 wheelers - because God is going to protect me.
Give me a break. You may fall for such faulty reasoning, but I certainly don't.
It is impossible to argue with someone who takes snippets of posts and responds to them out of context, especially when the parts that are deleted directly contradict the "points" being made. Someone who takes snippets of Biblical passages out of context to defend their pet position on any topic. Someone who creates straw men arguments by grossly exaggerating opposing positions to ridiculous levels. It's like I'm arguing with a political talk show host.
Also, I still don't understand why people think this law only applies to Christian churches.
Anyway, sticking with the Christian Church theology, here are some facts. I don't see how anyone here can dispute these facts:
Fact: Members of the Original Church, the disciples of Jesus of Nazareth, were carrying weapons in the presence of Jesus.
Fact: The leader of the church, Jesus of Nazareth, Son of God, was aware that His followers were carrying weapons (see Luke 22:38), and there is no Biblical reference saying He objected to this.
Using those two facts, arguably, the disciples were armed in church and Jesus of Nazareth did not object to his followers being armed in church. The reason Jesus allowed his followers to go armed in church, whether for protection after He was gone or to fulfill some prophecy (incidentally, one that never actually mentions requiring a sword), is irrelevant. He allowed it (fact), why won't you? What Christian, what follower of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, is so egotistical to think their opinion on weapons in church is more important than the precedent set by Jesus of Nazareth himself?
If a church in Arkansas (by "church" I mean any religious organization and NOT just Christianity) wants to allow guns in their church for any reason whatsoever, what right do you have to tell them they can't do it? Are you trying to dictate how they worship? Maybe next you want to tell them how to sit or which musical instruments they can or can't use. I keep asking these questions, but no one opposed to me ever answers. They just keep on trying to defend their personal interpretation of what it means to be a Christian (again, this isn't a law directed at Christians, it's for ANY religious institution).
If you don't like guns, then that's your right. Don't attend a church that allows guns.
Interesting... I just scanned through all 10 pages of this thread and all I found were references to Christianity. How narcissistic of us to assume "church or other place of worship" automatically means "Christian church". Even I fell into the trap.
It's Arkansas. Deep in the Bible Belt. 99% of the people living there identify as Christian.
Right. Jesus is the Son of God and is omnipotent. He came to the earth with the express purpose of being arrested, tried, convicted and crucified. He did not need his disciples to protect Him - He did not WANT to be protected.
Context.
I see no indication that he intended his disciples to protect themselves either. He said Christians would be persecuted as he was. He said to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. He said we are not of this world. And the Apostles didn't defend themselves in his name, they were martyred.
I'm not saying you shouldn't or can't, merely that I see no evidence Jesus told us to, seeing as Christians are only here temporarily anyway and should look to God's kingdom.
I see no indication that he intended his disciples to protect themselves either. He said Christians would be persecuted as he was. He said to love our enemies and turn the other cheek. He said we are not of this world.
This.
Though it's amazing the number of "Christians" who cannot wait for the chance to blow some guy away if they catch him stealing the GPS out of their car. Apparently if the bad guy chooses to do this in the parking lot of a church in Arkansas he'll be blown into teeny tiny pieces by all of Jesus' followers.
Oddly enough, the people blowing him away will be the same people who claim to be "pro-life".
Gun AND church...TOGETHER! Conservatives everywhere must be orgasming over this.
I'm happy that the government has removed itself from the equation and allowed the individual church to make their own decision. They should do the same for ALL people, businesses and organizations.
It's Arkansas. Deep in the Bible Belt. 99% of the people living there identify as Christian.
Is this just another one of your lies or do you have a link to back up your statement?
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