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As a person who studies history I am very disappointed in you.
I'm surprised to find that you held any expectations about me, a total stranger, in the first place. But that said, it is in fact my study of history that leads me to the conclusions I have drawn concerning the general honesty of human beings. I'm not being cynical, as I am among those who have a deep love for humanity and belief in its inherent goodness. But the falling boulder will crush you regardless of your belief in its reality. And everybody lies on a frequent basis, whether you choose to believe it or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon
You are posting based on opinions formed on emotion - not logic or facts.
There is no conceivable way for you to honestly know that. So what we have here is very close to a demonstration of what I've been saying. An assertion of that sort made entirely out of whole cloth, having no genuine data in its support, not even pretending to have done anything to pressure test its truth, falls neatly on the continuum of dishonesty that most people engage in. In short... it is a lie.
The pretense of knowledge as a veneer to actual ignorance is arguably the starting point of most ordinary bouts of falsehood.
See? You did not disappoint me at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon
When anyone lies for political gain, they deserve to get called out for it, not excused, because you like his political objectives. Shame on you.
Don't be silly.
The primary reasons all politicians lie (and yes, all politicians lie) is that we demand it of them. We refuse to elect anyone who will tell us the truth, and so anybody intent on doing public service in an elected position, even a person of otherwise unimpeachable integrity and good intent, must become a facile liar in order to be effective. This is magnified by the simple fact that the adversarial nature of our political process demands that both sides lie with regularity and enthusiasm if for no other reason than to fight fire with fire.
"Calling them out" is worse than merely pointless (since it's already understood) it's actually a demonstration of laziness and irrelevance. It is an attempt at substituting a false and hypocritical pretense of moral superiority for the inability to defend one's position on the issues. Look at the trivial nonsense you guys whine about Obama saying, and then reflect on the substantive things he is actually accomplishing... things that by the way a large number of us actually support.
If as part of a political argument somebody says something that is not true, the only potent response is, "That's not true, and this is why." Not, "Liar, liar pants on fire!"
I am not so stupid as to expect politicians to be honest, nor ignorant enough to consider it very important. Having the capacity to see though the bull**** ultimately hamstrings any visceral tendency to pompous outrage. If you are genuinely outraged, then you lack the capacity to understand what is going on in the first place. So nobody cares.
And no... I gave up the self indulgence of shame about the same time I gave up Roman Catholicism.
That was in 3rd Grade.
Last edited by HistorianDude; 03-06-2013 at 08:58 PM..
I'm surprised to find that you held any expectations about me, a total stranger, in the first place. But that said, it is in fact my study of history that leads me to the conclusions I have drawn concerning the general honesty of human beings. I'm not being cynical, as I am among those who have a deep love for humanity and belief in its inherent goodness. But the falling boulder will crush you regardless of your belief in its reality. And everybody lies on a frequent basis, whether you choose to believe it or not.
There is no conceivable way for you to honestly know that. So what we have here is very close to a demonstration of what I've been saying. An assertion of that sort made entirely out of whole cloth, having no genuine data in its support, not even pretending to have done anything to pressure test its truth, falls neatly on the continuum of dishonesty that most people engage in. In short... it is a lie.
The pretense of knowledge as a veneer to actual ignorance is arguably the starting point of most ordinary bouts of falsehood.
See? You did not disappoint me at all.
Don't be silly.
The primary reasons all politicians lie (and yes, all politicians lie) is that we demand it of them. We refuse to elect anyone who will tell us the truth, and so anybody intent on doing public service in an elected position, even a person of otherwise unimpeachable integrity and good intent, must become a facile liar in order to be effective. This is magnified by the simple fact that the adversarial nature of our political process demands that both sides lie with regularity and enthusiasm if for no other reason than to fight fire with fire.
"Calling them out" is worse than merely pointless (since it's already understood) it's actually a demonstration of laziness and irrelevance. It is an attempt at substituting a false and hypocritical pretense of moral superiority for the inability to defend one's position on the issues. Look at the trivial nonsense you guys whine about Obama saying, and then reflect on the substantive things he is actually accomplishing... things that by the way a large number of us actually support.
If as part of a political argument somebody says something that is not true, the only potent response is, "That's not true, and this is why." Not, "Liar, liar pants on fire!"
I am not so stupid as to expect politicians to be honest, nor ignorant enough to consider it very important. Having the capacity to see though the bull**** ultimately hamstrings any visceral tendency to pompous outrage. If you are genuinely outraged, then you lack the capacity to understand what is going on in the first place. So nobody cares.
And no... I gave up the self indulgence of shame about the same time I gave up Roman Catholicism.
That was in 3rd Grade.
Re-read your argument that I posted on.
Your argument is based on A) your emotional attachment to the party/president and B) opinion that Republicans lie more. So then you draw an absurd conclusion that justifies Obama lying and ridicules those who point it out.
Your mentality is what is ruining discourse in America: It is okay that my guy lied, because the other side is so bad, so stop criticizing my guy for lying.
How about when any public official lies, acts hypocritically, or breaks a promise any citizen armed with knowledge calls him or her out on it to keep the politicians honest - regardless of emotional attachments.
I hope that you are still in college and learning what a historian should do.
Your argument is based on A) your emotional attachment to the party/president and B) opinion that Republicans lie more. So then you draw an absurd conclusion that justifies Obama lying and ridicules those who point it out.
There you go again. You just can't seem to help yourself.
First, it can hardly be based on an "emotional attachment" to a party I have never belonged to. I am not and never have been a Democrat. I was a Republican until 2005. And nowhere in anything I've ever written here will you find evidence of an "emotional" attachment to the President. I support his policies, and I admire him as an individual. I have little doubt however that we would not even be friends were we to meet under appropriate circumstances. And your claim of emotional attachment certainly cannot be justified by the actual post I made.
So from where could you derive a reasonable basis for such assertions?
You can't. You're just making stuff up.
So you compound your prior dishonesty for reasons that cannot be credited to honest mistake. It seems you are unable to commit fingers to keyboard without providing additional evidence that I completely correct regarding my assertion that everybody lies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon
Your mentality is what is ruining discourse in America: It is okay that my guy lied, because the other side is so bad, so stop criticizing my guy for lying.
I suggest you have that completely backwards. The pragmatic, realistic understanding of the situational virtue of "honesty" has been key to more than two centuries of uneven but persistent American political effectiveness. It is the embrace of dogmatism, abandonment of pragmatism and refusal to compromise of people like yourself that is responsible for the current abysmal state of American political discourse.
Let me put as fine a point as possible on this. In the face of genuine political issues, the fake outrage over trivial nonsense that constitutes the conservative discussion of this president is stupid. It is despicable. It is pathetic. And it is why your side of the political division is in such complete current disarray.
It is not okay that the President lies "because the other side is so bad." That is certainly the justification for my dismissal of people who whine about it as hopeless hypocrites and nincompoops, but it is not justification for the lying itself. The reason it is "okay" that the President lies is because lying is first and foremost part of the human condition, second it is an integral part of any pragmatic political process, and third because the people that count... the smart people who understand the issues and who have influence in making decisions... are not misled by it.
It really, ultimately does not matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon
How about when any public official lies, acts hypocritically, or breaks a promise any citizen armed with knowledge calls him or her out on it to keep the politicians honest - regardless of emotional attachments.
Those are three completely different things. Some of them matter. Some don't. All are inevitable. And you are welcome to wring your hands every-time your naive and pollyannish sensibilities are offended.
Just don't delude yourself into believing that you are thereby morally superior, logically justified, or of much real interest to anybody else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon
I hope that you are still in college and learning what a historian should do.
Another one of your hopes dashed upon the rocks of reality.
There you go again. You just can't seem to help yourself.
First, it can hardly be based on an "emotional attachment" to a party I have never belonged to. I am not and never have been a Democrat. I was a Republican until 2005. And nowhere in anything I've ever written here will you find evidence of an "emotional" attachment to the President. I support his policies, and I admire him as an individual. I have little doubt however that we would not even be friends were we to meet under appropriate circumstances. And your claim of emotional attachment certainly cannot be justified by the actual post I made.
So from where could you derive a reasonable basis for such assertions?
You can't. You're just making stuff up.
So you compound your prior dishonesty for reasons that cannot be credited to honest mistake. It seems you are unable to commit fingers to keyboard without providing additional evidence that I completely correct regarding my assertion that everybody lies.
I suggest you have that completely backwards. The pragmatic, realistic understanding of the situational virtue of "honesty" has been key to more than two centuries of uneven but persistent American political effectiveness. It is the embrace of dogmatism, abandonment of pragmatism and refusal to compromise of people like yourself that is responsible for the current abysmal state of American political discourse.
Let me put as fine a point as possible on this. In the face of genuine political issues, the fake outrage over trivial nonsense that constitutes the conservative discussion of this president is stupid. It is despicable. It is pathetic. And it is why your side of the political division is in such complete current disarray.
It is not okay that the President lies "because the other side is so bad." That is certainly the justification for my dismissal of people who whine about it as hopeless hypocrites and nincompoops, but it is not justification for the lying itself. The reason it is "okay" that the President lies is because lying is first and foremost part of the human condition, second it is an integral part of any pragmatic political process, and third because the people that count... the smart people who understand the issues and who have influence in making decisions... are not misled by it.
It really, ultimately does not matter.
Those are three completely different things. Some of them matter. Some don't. All are inevitable. And you are welcome to wring your hands every-time your naive and pollyannish sensibilities are offended.
Just don't delude yourself into believing that you are thereby morally superior, logically justified, or of much real interest to anybody else.
Another one of your hopes dashed upon the rocks of reality.
You do have an emotional attachment to Obama. Read the threads that you have started. You stop thinking logically when it comes to Obama.
You are hypocritical. And you do make emotional arguments supported by opinions.
You are dodging the issue and changing the topic. I won't let you be an intellectual coward and run from this...Back to my original post....To sum up your post I critiqued you are essentially saying:
Argument: You can't criticize Obama = Emotion.
Supporting Evidence for your Argument: Republicans lie more = Opinion.
I would like you to stop being emotional, and with logic explain to me why in a free society we shouldn't criticize any elected official when they lie, distort, break a promise or are hypocritical. So far you have chosen to duck this request. Be intellectually brave and defend your emotional assertion that Obama can't be criticized. It is disappointing that colleges aren't training History majors to think critically...
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