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Believe it or not, the Founding Fathers had a perfect opportunity to embody Christian beliefs in the Constitution if they had wanted to do so and they chose not to. It would be nice if you conservatives would follow the lead of those wise men you claim to venerate.
Most of them were also the authors of State Constitutions, and every single State Constitution mentions God. The US Constitution specifically says they Congress will NOT interfere with it, and the intent was to leave it to the people, the States, and every State opted IN for Christian values.
That is not the point of the thead though. The point is that Senator Portman betrayed the people who put him in the office. The people voted for someone represent their views, which oppose gay marriage, but that person turned around and is now promoting gay marriage.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 03-15-2013 at 10:13 AM..
Agreed. While I do applaud Portman's change of heart I couldn't help but feel a little angry while reading the article. He, as a human being is so incapable of empathy that it took him realizing that his son could be affected by his anti-marriage equality to realize that he was wrong. Never mind his neighbors, constituents and their families, his snowflake might have to suffer unequal treatment so therefore discrimination against gays is wrong.
Frankly, most hot button social issues and even healthcare reform, wouldn't even be issues if this subset of our population was capable of the slightest bit of empathy.
That said, good on the Senator.
Well said.
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Originally Posted by legalsea
My sentiment exactly. Well said. Indeed, I wish I had thought of the word 'empathy' in my post, since that is the correct word.
Same here. Empathy - and compassion - are the two things that are lacking with so many who are opposed to marriage equality.
I just hope more and more conservative lawmakers find their own "epiphanies." I see it happening slowly but surely right here on City Data; just in the year and a half or so since I've been a member here, I've seen several other members who had been quite vocal in their opposition when I first joined come over to the side of what's right and what's fair.
My own epiphany happened seven or eight years ago. While I wasn't really opposed to same sex marriage, I wasn't quite sure how I felt about it. I was just kind of "on the fence" about it, I guess. And then one afternoon, while I was fixing dinner and the news was on and there was a segment about same sex marriage, my then 13-or-14-year old son (he's now 22) walked into the room, paused in front of the t.v., and said, "I'm so sick of hearing about gay marriage! Why can't they just let them get married and be happy?"
I remember it so well - it was three little words in his second sentence that was my own epiphany: "Why can't they......?"
I couldn't come up with one good reason why same sex couples should not be allowed to get married "and be happy."
My son doesn't even remember that conversation (I've asked him) but I remember it like it was yesterday.
I've said it before and I guess I'll say it again - I am very optimistic about the direction this is going. I believe there will be more and more Portmans out there changing their minds for whatever reasons.
Do I wish they would show "empathy" for others and not wait until it affects them personally (and I agree about Cheney - I don't think there's a snowball's chance he would ever have been pro marriage equality if it had not touched him personally)? Yes, of course I do.
But, for me at least, it's not as important HOW we get there, but just that we DO get there.
Good for him. The sooner our political leaders start focusing on fiscal and economic issues rather than social issues, we will start seeing better results.
While I am also pleased that Senator Portman has had a 'change of heart', it has always bewildered me (though it should not) that people take strong stances on issues: until it affects him or her. It shows that their 'beliefs' are built on a foundation of sand.
Dick Cheney: the same boat as Senator Portman: since his daughter is gay, he likewise looks favorably on gay rights. If she were not gay, it is easy to suppose that he would be a firebrand against such rights.
In favor of assault weapons? Well, just until the person is shot. Then they propose all sorts of laws limiting access to guns.
There is an old saw concerning 'law and order' people: A conservative is a liberal who has been mugged.
I certainly witnessed some Washington politicians change their minds about the draft back in the late 1960s when their drop-out sons became eligible for the draft (to me it is no coincident that the WWII vets who numbered mightily in the House and Senate started having a change of heart when their own children began hitting draft age).
The problem, of course, is that the rights of gays, for example, should not be subject to a happenstance of a politicians' family member announcing their sexual orientation. A person's opinion should be based upon calm, reflective reasoning, including what the Constitution says.
I will say that I am glad that Senator Portman does not have, apparently, a strong, over-riding religious belief that would trump his son's announcement ("Son, you is going to heck!").
One of my relatives is of the same sort: utterly against any government assistance for anyone whatsoever, until he felt compelled to file for (and began receiving) Federal disability benefits. After some 20 years (he is now 55) of receiving such benefits he has obviously, long ago, received much more in payments than he ever paid in. How he panics whenever his case is up for review for possible cessation! How he howls about the blasted government daring to threaten his monthly payments! Yet, he is adamant about cutting off all assistant to the poor and elderly ("let them sink or swim!"). He also cares not about properly funding the VA, since he (eligible for treatment at such facilities) prefers his own private doctor. Since he is in his own private lifeboat, he can watch with detached amusement as others sink into the depths. I suppose that if his disability were to cease, and he had to file for welfare, his tune, like Senator Portman's, would change some more.
Ah, well! I like the result in the instant case, but I do not care for the process that creates the result.
The American value at issue here is not "put the penis in the vagina". The American value is to grow to know and love someone, form a committed partnership, get married and raise a family, and be a stable member of the community.
Who does what with what parts has nothing to do with it.
This is true.
The anti marriage equality crowd is so obsessed with the most intimate and private details of what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes that that is all they see.
It's like they think that the only reason same sex couples want to marry is so they can legally fornicate - all day and all night - and that there is nothing to their relationships besides SEX.
When same sex couples were finally allowed to apply for their marriage licenses a month after it passed by voter approval in this state, it was, of course, big news on all the local news programs. And they were showing couples (both men and women) who had been together for thirty or forty years and who were in their seventies, and even eighties, applying for marriage licenses.
And while I know we can all have healthy sex lives well into our golden years, the way some would like us all to believe is that even for those couples in their seventies and eighties that it is all about the SEX. Not about love and devotion and companionship and friendship - it's the SEX.
That is not the point of the thead though. The point is that Senator Portman betrayed the people who put him in the office. The people voted for someone represent their views, which oppose gay marriage, but that person turned around and is not promoting it.
Given that the original post closed with the line "What a mensch" I submit that you do not, in fact, have a clue about the point of the thread. Sadly for you, the forces of intolerance are losing fast on this issue.
This is not good!! You dont change a moral issue just because someone you love choses the wrong path! That's not love!
Love doesn't mean you affirm everything that someone is into!!
And it doesn't mean you hate them either!!
But your values aint worth spit if you drop them at the first sign of trouble! His son needs his dad to stand up and and stand strong on what he knows is right!
Portman should be ashamed!! What a weasel!! What a politician..........
So, anything goes as long as you say you are simply pursuing happiness?
No, it's not "anything goes" - violence, theft, etc. are not allowed because there clearly are victims. The burden of proof is on you to show reasonably good evidence that someone's actions violate your rights. Being morally offended or aesthetically disgusted might seem like a form of personal harm to you, but this sort of discomfort for you does not count as someone violating your rights. So the question you have to consider is this: How does gay marriage violate your rights as an American citizen?For a credible answer, you will need to avoid basing your claim on religious beliefs or personal preferences. You also have to avoid vague concepts like "the moral fabric of society" because these vague terms don't specify how your rights are being violated (and, besides, it's also a form of thinly-disguised religious propaganda). You might try to target the economic benefits gained by married gay couples, but if you try this, then you are inadvertently emphasizing the ways in which current laws and policies cause tangible harm to gay people - treating them unfairly and unjustly. By comparison: slave owners could complain that the loss of their slaves caused them economic hardship. But such arguments don't work. Even if the ending of slavery had led to the utter collapse the American economy and the destruction of American society, you still cannot justifiably advocate the maintenance of slavery just for the sake of economics. The same principles apply to gay marriage. If one segment of the population gains economic advantage because another segment is oppressed, the privileged segment cannot justifiable claim that their rights are violated when the ill-begotten gains of social/political oppression are taken away. So, in light of this, how does gay marriage violate your rights?
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I have heard that argument from the legalize-all-drugs crowd. It's a slippery slope, because people can toss in the "pursuit of happiness" argument about any activity. Some people are at their happiest walking around nude, but I don't think we should allow them to practise their pursuit of happiness in public. Do you?
On the question of nudity, I'd repeat everything I said above, and then I'd ask the exact same question.
But your values aint worth spit if you drop them at the first sign of trouble! His son needs his dad to stand up and and stand strong on what he knows is right!
Maybe he realized his original values were not worth spit. Even if my religion tells me it is wrong my Constitution states otherwise. We are not a theocracy.
Given that the original post closed with the line "What a mensch" I submit that you do not, in fact, have a clue about the point of the thread. Sadly for you, the forces of intolerance are losing fast on this issue.
The topic is the Senator and his 180 degree turn on his stance. The original poster has his opinon on it, and I have mine. I see such reversal as betrayal, because people voted him to represent their view, and now he is obviously representing the OPPOSITE of their view.
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