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Old 03-26-2013, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,710 posts, read 12,987,253 times
Reputation: 4170

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane View Post
You can't tell people how to feel and if they fear rape regardless of how irrational you think it is, they have that right. If you don't get it, you don't get it regarding the violation and humiliation factor. If your wife is taking thirty years, then you should understand. It's not because people are brainwashing victims that they can't get past it, it really can cause that much damage.
It can, but the brainwashing that does take place is frequently counterproductive, for the victim anyway.

Quote:
People who are victims or "survivors" can live normal lives, it's up to the victim how they handle it. Some forgive, some want the perp to suffer, some go after the perp years later...whatever works for the victim. What they don't need is criticism for how they deal with it.
Nobody is 'criticizing' victims, but it doesn't follow that we have to listen to victims and only victims in defining a response to the problem. In fact, the only time I hear victims criticized is when they don't toe the line drawn by fellow victims in demanding maximum contempt and punishment for perpetrators.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:41 PM
 
18,152 posts, read 10,600,378 times
Reputation: 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post

Nobody is 'criticizing' victims, but it doesn't follow that we have to listen to victims and only victims in defining a response to the problem. In fact, the only time I hear victims criticized is when they don't toe the line drawn by fellow victims in demanding maximum contempt and punishment for perpetrators.
I think victims should deal the best way for them individually. I see the opposite, victims are expected to forgive perps to help heal, and those who deal better knowing the perp is being punished harshly are criticized and even futher punished by being told they are mean. Read the thread, some stop feeling sympathy for a victim if the victim wants severe punishment for the perp. In real life most people whose family members have been sexually assaulted want severe punishment for the one who did it, and would do it themselves if it were legal, this idea that it isn't a big deal is an anomoly.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:48 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 5,273,784 times
Reputation: 3138
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Op thinks rape = same as being beat up.

Op loses all credibility.
No, some rape is. The definition of rape has continuously broadened over the years just like assault has. If you poke someone with a finger or if you beat them to a bloody pulp, it's assault. It is the same with rape. If someone is drunk they've been raped even if they wanted the sex, and someone who is kidnapped, tied down, and viciously attacked has also been raped. Not all rapes are the same.

There is a tendency when thinking of the effects and punishment for rape to immediately go to the worst possible cases of rape, but then when defining rape to go to the broadest possible definition.

The way the 1 in 4 women are sexually assaulted statistic came into being was to even allow retroactive assault. If you consent to sex today, then decide tomorrow you wish you hadn't done it then you become a victim. Any person who had sex and later regretted it was defined as a sexual assault victim.

What that does is get a lot of media attention and funding but doesn't really help the problem. The "all rape is always the worst thing that can possibly happen to someone" is doing a disservice to people. It advances the cause of rape crisis advocates and it makes people feel righteous like they're being tough on crime, but it does these things at the expense of the health of the victims. If you strip a person's resiliency, hope, and inner strength away from them - even when you are doing it from a motive of sympathy - you make it harder for them to recover.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,710 posts, read 12,987,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane View Post
I think victims should deal the best way for them individually. I see the opposite, victims are expected to forgive perps to help heal, and those who deal better knowing the perp is being punished harshly are criticized and even futher punished by being told they are mean. Read the thread, some stop feeling sympathy for a victim if the victim wants severe punishment for the perp. In real life most people whose family members have been sexually assaulted want severe punishment for the one who did it, and would do it themselves if it were legal, this idea that it isn't a big deal is an anomoly.
It's an anomaly but you see it a lot? That's a contradiction in terms.

The victims who go on with their lives more or less normally are probably more numerous than the ones shouting for vengeance, but they aren't noticed or taken account of because, typically, they aren't going on Oprah and announcing to the world that they are victims. The squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease.

I remember when Mackenzie Phillips was chastised by the professional victim groups when she opined that her incestuous relationship with her father "became consensual." That possibility was a heresy that the victim groups couldn't allow to be taken seriously by the public, and so they quickly induced her to retract it. So much for listening to the victim!
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Allendale MI
2,525 posts, read 2,127,761 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrier View Post
No they are not.
Yes they are. You may want to take a couple of biology classes.
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:21 PM
 
18,152 posts, read 10,600,378 times
Reputation: 23169
Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
It's an anomaly but you see it a lot? That's a contradiction in terms.

The victims who go on with their lives more or less normally are probably more numerous than the ones shouting for vengeance, but they aren't noticed or taken account of because, typically, they aren't going on Oprah and announcing to the world that they are victims. The squeaky wheel is the one that gets the grease.

I remember when Mackenzie Phillips was chastised by the professional victim groups when she opined that her incestuous relationship with her father "became consensual." That possibility was a heresy that the victim groups couldn't allow to be taken seriously by the public, and so they quickly induced her to retract it. So much for listening to the victim!
Well, I still think most people would want the harshest punishment for their loved one's perpetrators. But there is certainly a segment of society, that is actually political, and pushing for forgiveness and rehab for sex criminals. They are quite vocal in the media. Vulnerable victims might feel pressured or like they are bad people for wanting the rapist to suffer.

I think having the perp harshly punished can really help a victim. Whenever someone gets their just punishment, it can be THE thing that lets a person move on. That is the healing.

M. Phillips father was a monster who ruined her life, that's all I know. She is doing better now it seems so good for her.
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:06 PM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,974 posts, read 25,773,046 times
Reputation: 15629
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane View Post
Well, I still think most people would want the harshest punishment for their loved one's perpetrators. But there is certainly a segment of society, that is actually political, and pushing for forgiveness and rehab for sex criminals. They are quite vocal in the media. Vulnerable victims might feel pressured or like they are bad people for wanting the rapist to suffer.

I think having the perp harshly punished can really help a victim. Whenever someone gets their just punishment, it can be THE thing that lets a person move on. That is the healing.

M. Phillips father was a monster who ruined her life, that's all I know. She is doing better now it seems so good for her.
Or not as you yourself stated earlier it depends on the victim. Also, what's harsh and when they're through being punished should the punishment end? If it shouldn't end then when is enough enough? Another question, what sex offense doesn't deserve to be subject to hunting and punished forever or what ones do?
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Old 03-26-2013, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,710 posts, read 12,987,253 times
Reputation: 4170
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane View Post
I think having the perp harshly punished can really help a victim. Whenever someone gets their just punishment, it can be THE thing that lets a person move on. That is the healing.
What counts as "harsh", and what counts as "just", is precisely what people, including people who are victims or are close to victims, commonly disagree about.
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:07 PM
 
2,096 posts, read 4,539,437 times
Reputation: 1269
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Op thinks rape = same as being beat up.

Op loses all credibility.
You don't think some beatings are just as heinous as some rapes? You can die or end up in a wheelchair from a beating. I don't see it as categorically less of a serious crime, I think it depends on the case in question.
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Old 03-27-2013, 12:47 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,630 posts, read 27,357,358 times
Reputation: 11394
Quote:
Originally Posted by belmont22 View Post
There seem to be two general ideas about sexual offenses:

1) Ooooooh They was asking for it! (Victim blaming/trivializing)
2) OMG the victim will never ever get over it! Their life is ruined forever! Execute the perpetrator, they will never change! (Blowing the situation out of proportion)

There's also people out there who think it's "creepy" for an 18 year old to go out with a 17 year old, simply because one is technically an adult in some jurisdictions.

Why can't people be rational and have an reasonable attitude towards sexual offenses? How come there's either this totally dismissive attitude, or this extreme reactionary stance?

I've been molested before, not as a kid but as a teen/adult, and it was scary and unpleasant but I think people have a rather strange attitude about it. I don't think it's qualitively worse than any other kind of assault, though I do think it's a big deal and shouldn't be laughed off.
Maybe you'll have the joy of being raped and you can answer your own questions.
Molested, were you raped?
If you've not been raped, you have no idea.
What's the difference between your trivializing it, and others?
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