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Old 03-23-2013, 04:46 AM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,084 posts, read 13,748,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
Because of people like you.
That doesn't even make a whole lot of sense, now does it?
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:54 AM
 
6,351 posts, read 9,656,613 times
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I agree and disagree. I do believe that not all sex crimes are committed equal, and some aren't that bad.

For example, I know a guy who casually talked about the time he was fourteen and his twenty year old male neighbor talked for awhile, found out he was gay, and began the process of seducing him which ended in him receiving oral sex. I am going to catch ALL KINDS OF FLACK for saying this but: at fourteen, in this day and age, kids know what sex is whether parents know they do or not. He wanted a BJ, and he got one. That should be illegal but it doesn't deserve the "tar and feather him" approach some would take.

At the same time I had a friend way back when who was EVEN WORSE WITH WOMEN THEN ME. He could barely talk to them and had attention issues his whole life. He once told me that he thinks his issues come from his mother who molested him in the bathtub, over and over, when he was five until about eight. And no, she wasn't just doing her "motherly duty" of washing him and he mistakook that for molestation, or whatever else some dumb feminist will argue...unless her "motherly duty" included giving him a reach around and making him touch her between the legs. Now that is sick.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:01 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 34,173,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belmont22 View Post
There seem to be two general ideas about sexual offenses:

1) Ooooooh They was asking for it! (Victim blaming/trivializing)
2) OMG the victim will never ever get over it! Their life is ruined forever! Execute the perpetrator, they will never change! (Blowing the situation out of proportion)

There's also people out there who think it's "creepy" for an 18 year old to go out with a 17 year old, simply because one is technically an adult in some jurisdictions.

Why can't people be rational and have an reasonable attitude towards sexual offenses? How come there's either this totally dismissive attitude, or this extreme reactionary stance?

I've been molested before, not as a kid but as a teen/adult, and it was scary and unpleasant but I think people have a rather strange attitude about it. I don't think it's qualitively worse than any other kind of assault, though I do think it's a big deal and shouldn't be laughed off.
Sexual predators are like serial killers. They keep on offending. The damage they do goes on and on. Other types of assault (omitting serial killers) are, usually, situational. It's unusual to have someone who just, habitually, goes around assaulting people and when we do, we treat them like the predators they are. We have a sexual predator list for a reason. The rate of recivitism is high. Sexual offenders are preditors. They hunt for prey and they commit their crimes over and over and over. They are unable to control sexual urges. So, yes, they belong in a different category.

The crime itself is also worse than an assault. Bruises heal. The psyche doesn't. I was 14 and thought myself worthless for many years afterwards. I felt dirty. I simple assault couldn't accomplish that. I had one of those in high school too when a gang of girls who didn't like me decided to beat me up. Interestingly, no one said I asked for that but many did the other time (It was a bitter cold day and I had put on two pairs of pants to keep my legs warm (they said my pants were too tight) then accepted a ride from someone I knew casually (A guy a woman I used to baby sit for had dated.).

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 03-23-2013 at 05:17 AM..
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:17 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 34,173,887 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I agree and disagree. I do believe that not all sex crimes are committed equal, and some aren't that bad.

For example, I know a guy who casually talked about the time he was fourteen and his twenty year old male neighbor talked for awhile, found out he was gay, and began the process of seducing him which ended in him receiving oral sex. I am going to catch ALL KINDS OF FLACK for saying this but: at fourteen, in this day and age, kids know what sex is whether parents know they do or not. He wanted a BJ, and he got one. That should be illegal but it doesn't deserve the "tar and feather him" approach some would take.

At the same time I had a friend way back when who was EVEN WORSE WITH WOMEN THEN ME. He could barely talk to them and had attention issues his whole life. He once told me that he thinks his issues come from his mother who molested him in the bathtub, over and over, when he was five until about eight. And no, she wasn't just doing her "motherly duty" of washing him and he mistakook that for molestation, or whatever else some dumb feminist will argue...unless her "motherly duty" included giving him a reach around and making him touch her between the legs. Now that is sick.
The problem here is a 20 year old is supposed to protect a 14 year old in our society. It doesn't matter what hte 14 year old knows. They are not old enough to consent. They do not understand the position they put themselves in or the ramifications of their actions. The adult in the situation is supposed to protect the child. You cannot justify a 20 year old giving a 14 year old a blow job. That is using a child for sex and it is wrong. Any time an ADULT does this, it is a serious crime. I don't care if the teen wanted it or not. That adult is someone who needs to be taken out of society to protect other children.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:29 AM
 
2,096 posts, read 4,542,986 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Sexual predators are like serial killers. They keep on offending. The damage they do goes on and on. Other types of assault (omitting serial killers) are, usually, situational. It's unusual to have someone who just, habitually, goes around assaulting people and when we do, we treat them like the predators they are. We have a sexual predator list for a reason. The rate of recivitism is high. Sexual offenders are preditors. They hunt for prey and they commit their crimes over and over and over. They are unable to control sexual urges. So, yes, they belong in a different category.
That's not necessarily true. You can't put every single offender into a box and say they are irredeemable, people are unique and criminals offend for different reasons. Of course we are so unforgiving nowadays, labeling people "psychopaths" and such. It's a symptom of the fascist culture that America is and always has been in many ways.

I am sorry for what happened to you though.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:33 AM
 
2,096 posts, read 4,542,986 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1brownsfan View Post
Rapists, and child molesters should be shot IMO. As for an 18 year old having sex with a 17 year old, or even a 16 year old, isn't a big deal. People getting caught peeing in public, or mooning someone does not warrant them to be sexual predators.

Glad you were able to rise above your ordeal BTW.
I wouldn't even really call it an ordeal. Then again, it wasn't anything close to rape, but I didn't feel like either case was that big a deal. I guess other people are more bothered by those kinds of things though.

I think it's an honor thing. Most people view molestation as a disgrace to their honor. I've never really had too much of a sense of "honor". The military, funerals, national anthems -- none of them really stir me emotionally all that much.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:59 AM
 
7,359 posts, read 5,274,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
That doesn't even make a whole lot of sense, now does it?
It's the answer to the question you asked.

Take an insulting attitude with your "confession is good for the soul" thing and ask why I'm "hell bent" on saying sexual assault isn't so bad. When all I said was that as bad as it is, the hysteria over it makes it even worse for the victims. Not only was I not "hell bent" on saying sexual assault isn't so bad, I didn't even say that at all. You know, in my first post on this thread I said if you don't assume the offender is Satan in the flesh, then you'll be accused of being a rape apologist. And you essentially proved my point.

So yes, it's because of people like you that I take the stance I do on sexual assault. Because your comment about someone not even being human if they aren't sufficiently outraged to suit you is exactly the sort of thing I think is bad for society. The "Kill all rapists!!" crowd may be making themselves feel righteous, but they aren't doing the actual victims any favors. The victims need people who keep a cool head, and offer calm and compassionate help and justice, not foaming at the mouth lynch mobs out for blood. That just makes an already traumatizing experience even worse.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:52 AM
 
7,359 posts, read 5,274,902 times
Reputation: 3138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Sexual predators are like serial killers. They keep on offending. The damage they do goes on and on. Other types of assault (omitting serial killers) are, usually, situational. It's unusual to have someone who just, habitually, goes around assaulting people and when we do, we treat them like the predators they are. We have a sexual predator list for a reason. The rate of recivitism is high. Sexual offenders are preditors. They hunt for prey and they commit their crimes over and over and over. They are unable to control sexual urges. So, yes, they belong in a different category.
Not all sexual offenders are serial rapists or pedophiles. Those that are don't belong on a list - they belong in jail permanently.
Quote:
The crime itself is also worse than an assault. Bruises heal. The psyche doesn't. I was 14 and thought myself worthless for many years afterwards. I felt dirty. I simple assault couldn't accomplish that. I had one of those in high school too when a gang of girls who didn't like me decided to beat me up. Interestingly, no one said I asked for that but many did the other time (It was a bitter cold day and I had put on two pairs of pants to keep my legs warm (they said my pants were too tight) then accepted a ride from someone I knew casually (A guy a woman I used to baby sit for had dated.).
The psyche does heal if you want it to. This is exactly the point I've been making in this thread. When people are beat down emotionally after the crime, it makes recovery from it all the more difficult. What happens to the person who reads your post and then gets assaulted the next day? What's comes into their mind? It's oh my god that woman who went through this said I'm never going to heal from this, I'm going to feel worthless for years. In trying to do the right thing, we end up doing the wrong thing - make it tougher on the victim to recover by making it seem to her that it's insurmountable and she is forever damaged. In the zeal to be seen as righteously anti-rape, we end up giving rape this "the most unholy terror imaginable" status that makes it even worse for the people who absorb that image from society and then end up being sexually assaulted themselves. And I'm not making this up. From the Zur Institute for psychotherapists on helping victims:
Quote:
Without blaming, the therapist's goal is to move the victim from blame to responsibility, from helplessness to accountability, and from hopelessness to empowerment. Victims should never take total responsibility for their suffering; however they must develop an understanding of how they contribute to their own victimization. While acquiring a cohesive sense of self, the victims must be helped to feel better about themselves, raise their self-esteem, and work through the legacy of their childhood abuse. Therapy must enable victims to break the dangerous and painful link between love and abuse while helping them realize that they deserve respect and dignity like any other human being.
You see, effective recovery rests on getting the survivor of the abuse to not view herself as a victim. To not see the crime as overwhelming. They need the confidence in their ability to overcome what happened, and telling someone it's so devastating that their psyche will never heal is counterproductive to that.

But our society is against that. Sexual assault is so poltiticized that if you attempt to realistically help someone then you're "blaming the victim", "minimizing rape", or something similar. Being politically correct has become more important than doing the right to help the situation.

And we do the same thing to the person who did the assault. Some of them aren't irredeemable. And note, I said "some". But if we just say they're all no longer human and deserve to be shot, then the ones who could have been saved won't be. From Psych Central:
Quote:
The largest, longest trial compared group therapy with no group therapy for 231 men guilty of child abuse, exhibitionism, or sexual assault. During the subsequent 10 years, a greater proportion of those allocated to group therapy were re-arrested, but this did not reach statistical significance.

However, evidence from these types of trials provides only a fraction of the knowledge needed, particularly on recidivism (used here to mean a repeat sexual offence), say the authors.

Treatment failure is associated with higher rates of recidivism, and offenders who successfully complete a treatment program reoffend less often and less seriously (that is non-sexual reoffending) than those who do not show that they have understood and worked through the relevant psychological issues.
Now none of this is a comment on your experiences. You went through what you went through and you dealt with it the way you dealt with it. I would never presume to question or comment on that. I'm just making a statement about society in general - that sexual assault is devastating for the victim of it, but as a society we are doing a disservice by pushing the victimization so hard that victims think they cannot heal when many of them really can with the proper help and encouragement. Obviously it depends on the severity of what happened and some - maybe even most - really are going to have lifelong scars. But victims deserve sympathy and strength, not just sympathy alone. That's how we give them the best chance at a healthy future.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:01 AM
 
Location: Orlando
8,272 posts, read 12,398,828 times
Reputation: 4131
Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
When I was 17 I was molested by a 35 year old woman. It was great!
reverse the sex and someone is going to jail. proving the OP's point of irrational beliefs relating to sexual behavior.

The OP missed the desire by many to may sexual assault a capital offense.

Here in FL if you are 23 or under you can have sex with that 17 yo... but those 24 yo's... go to jail... that year makes such a difference.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:22 AM
 
24,891 posts, read 13,327,803 times
Reputation: 13284
Quote:
Originally Posted by belmont22 View Post
There seem to be two general ideas about sexual offenses:

1) Ooooooh They was asking for it! (Victim blaming/trivializing)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
I don't see people doing this. I just see the people from your #2 on the list claiming that people are doing it.
I kind of agree with belmont22 on this.

As a teacher I brought up the Ohio rape case and in every single class I had to debate kids who would argue that "the girl was asking for it to happen by getting so drunk at a party with football players" or "I don't like that the boys are getting all of the blame when she knew what she was doing when she was getting drunk" or "the guys weren't wholly to blame either if they were drunk too" or "it is half her fault that she was raped, because she was so hammered" and "everyone knows what happens in those situations she deserves part of the blame."

Of course many students were upset to hear students blaming the victim, but in every class I had someone willing to voice that opinion...and I do try to make it safe for every student to voice their opinion.

The girl chose to get drunk. She didn't choose to get raped, by definition, a rape is against the victim's will.

The rapists chose their behavior and actions of rape.

The girl made herself more vulnerable, but the rapist is 100% responsible for choosing to attack the victim and rape.

Last edited by michiganmoon; 03-23-2013 at 08:06 AM..
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