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Old 03-23-2013, 08:39 AM
 
Location: LEAVING CD
22,974 posts, read 25,787,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
I don't see people doing this. I just see the people from your #2 on the list claiming that people are doing it.
By saying this, you now fall into category #1, trivializing
Because it has been politicized. There's an entire sexual violence industry out there that gets media attention, gets influence with politicians, and gets money for research, awareness, advocacy, prevention, etc. Other types of crimes are more common but since sexual violence involves gender it has been sensationalized for gain. I really don't think there's any question of that. I've read a couple of articles about how the feminist movement had started to falter as far as people seeing it as becoming irrelevant in the modern world and they hit on domestic violence and then saw a massive upsurge in attention and funding. I believe sexual violence is in the same category. Same as how breast cancer is pushed so hard even though heart disease kills more women than breast cancer does. Heart disease doesn't have "women's issue" stamped on it.
The smart thing would be to focus on effective treatment so that people get over being molested more often and more completely. "Take Back the Night" doesn't really do much of anything, but it makes headlines. Developing a new long term therapy for recovery doesn't.
Don't forget it's a media bonanza as well. Take Fox News Bill O'Reilly for example. He's built quite a following over the years with his "crusade" to force states to do what he deems appropriate. If they balk in any way they're hounded,belittled and deemed "pinheads" then put up for national scorn.
At the same time it's repeated over and over and over again that any "victim" of said offenders are now lifetime victims who will never get over or move past it. This constant drum beating has to lead some to think that they shouldn't even try to move on with their lives instead remaining victims forever.

Here's my question. Wouldn't one think it's more traumatic to have someone killed or severely injured right next to you especially if you're a child?
You don't hear massive uproar when that happens, nor do you hear everyone telling the witness "you're damaged for life" or creating huge organizations to advocate for them.
Why? Not juicy enough to get huge $$$$ or TV ratings.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a trivial thing but I also don't think most people are that fragile unless repeatedly encouraged to be.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:44 AM
 
7,359 posts, read 5,274,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
I kind of agree with belmont22 on this.

As a teacher I brought up the Ohio rape case and in every single class I had to debate kids who would argue that "the girl was asking for it to happen by getting so drunk at a party with football players" or "I don't like that the boys are getting all of the blame when she knew what she was doing when she was getting drunk" or "the guys weren't wholly to blame either if they were drunk too" or "it is half her fault that she was raped, because she was so hammered" and "everyone knows what happens in those situations she deserves part of the blame."

Of course many students were upset to hear students blaming the victim, but in every class I had someone willing to voice that opinion...and I do try to make it safe for every student to voice their opinion.

The girl chose to get drunk. She didn't choose to get raped, by definition, a rape is against the victim's will.

The rapists chose their behavior and actions of rape.

The girl made herself more vulnerable, but the rapist is 100% responsible for choosing to attack the victim and rape.
I didn't realize that was so prevalent. On blogs, forums, youtube videos I've seen, etc I have not seen the "she was asking for it" argument actually being made, only complaints about it. So maybe that is being done, I just haven't seen it in the places I frequent.

One exception I take though - "the guys weren't wholly to blame either if they were drunk too"

You call that an excuse that you argued against? What makes her innocent if she's drunk but him not if he's drunk? Why is a drunk female unable to give consent but a drunk man is? That's an unsupportable double standard to my mind. If they were both drunk then both are simultaneously victims and perpetrators of sexual assault. Or else neither one is. Charge them both or charge neither. But you can't hold one accountable and not the other if both were inebriated.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:45 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
19,909 posts, read 14,912,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
I kind of agree with belmont22 on this.

As a teacher I brought up the Ohio rape case and in every single class I had to debate kids who would argue that "the girl was asking for it to happen by getting so drunk at a party with football players" or "I don't like that the boys are getting all of the blame when she knew what she was doing when she was getting drunk" or "the guys weren't wholly to blame either if they were drunk too" or "it is half her fault that she was raped, because she was so hammered" and "everyone knows what happens in those situations she deserves part of the blame."

Of course many students were upset to hear students blaming the victim, but in every class I had someone willing to voice that opinion...and I do try to make it safe for every student to voice their opinion.

The girl chose to get drunk. She didn't choose to get raped, by definition, a rape is against the victim's will.

The rapists chose their behavior and actions of rape.

The girl made herself more vulnerable, but the rapist is 100% responsible for choosing to attack the victim and rape.
I'm not condoning what the football players did - not at all. But something has always troubled me a little about this argument, and I'm not even sure if it applicable in this case because I haven't followed it. However, if the victim is said to be unable to consent, because being drunk distorts their judgement to the point that they are not responsible for their decisions or actions, why is the same not true for the perpetrator? I am thinking of cases where the guy is so drunk he has no memory of the events.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:47 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
19,909 posts, read 14,912,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
I didn't realize that was so prevalent. On blogs, forums, youtube videos I've seen, etc I have not seen the "she was asking for it" argument actually being made, only complaints about it. So maybe that is being done, I just haven't seen it in the places I frequent.

One exception I take though - "the guys weren't wholly to blame either if they were drunk too"

You call that an excuse that you argued against? What makes her innocent if she's drunk but him not if he's drunk? Why is a drunk female unable to give consent but a drunk man is? That's an unsupportable double standard to my mind. If they were both drunk then both are simultaneously victims and perpetrators of sexual assault. Or else neither one is. Charge them both or charge neither. But you can't hold one accountable and not the other if both were inebriated.
Apparently, we were both thinking the same thing, at the same time.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:47 AM
 
Location: #
9,598 posts, read 16,000,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
I'm not condoning what the football players did - not at all. But something has always troubled me a little about this argument, and I'm not even sure if it applicable in this case because I haven't followed it. However, if the victim is said to be unable to content, because being drunk distorts their judgement to the point that they are not responsible for their decisions or actions, why is the same not true for the perpetrator? I am thinking of cases where the guy is so drunk he has no memory of the events.
I think the real question is why aren't all these kids thrown into jail for underage drinking before they even talk about the rape trial?

Because, gee, I don't know Wally but it seems as though alcohol always plays a factor.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:52 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
19,909 posts, read 14,912,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crbcrbrgv View Post
I think the real question is why aren't all these kids thrown into jail for underage drinking before they even talk about the rape trial?

Because, gee, I don't know Wally but it seems as though alcohol always plays a factor.
It isn't just underage kids this happens with. But yes, alcohol does seem to play a significant role in date rape.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:10 PM
 
18,157 posts, read 10,615,903 times
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Alot of people's lives have been deeply affected by sexual offenses, for instance the men that were abused by priests years ago.

I would guess most of us have been molested in some way at some time, groped or whatever, someone copping a feel in a crowded bar or a subway or bus. Just life.

But when it comes to forcible rape, I'd rather have the tar beaten out of me than ever be raped. I would want the perp to be executed.

I was in a jury pool for a violent rape case and was dismissed since I knew I could not sit through that trial or be impartial. The accused stared and stared at the women in the courtroom. I got a mugging case instead which was still quite unpleasant but nothing compared to the rape case.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:16 PM
 
24,891 posts, read 13,327,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
I didn't realize that was so prevalent. On blogs, forums, youtube videos I've seen, etc I have not seen the "she was asking for it" argument actually being made, only complaints about it. So maybe that is being done, I just haven't seen it in the places I frequent.
Thanks for your response.

Consider that I am dealing with High School students...the male mind doesn't fully mature until the mid to late 20s... So you may not have witnessed any on blogs with mostly adults talking. However, I deal with over 100 teenagers everyday.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
One exception I take though - "the guys weren't wholly to blame either if they were drunk too"

You call that an excuse that you argued against? What makes her innocent if she's drunk but him not if he's drunk?
She is guilty of underage drinking.

The two rapists are guilty of underage drinking, rape and one of the two is guilty of child pornography.

At no point did she consent or choose to be sexually assaulted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
Why is a drunk female unable to give consent but a drunk man is? That's an unsupportable double standard to my mind. If they were both drunk then both are simultaneously victims and perpetrators of sexual assault. Or else neither one is. Charge them both or charge neither. But you can't hold one accountable and not the other if both were inebriated.
She was passed out. She was unconscious. The two boys were conscious.

While she was unconscious, the two boys took her from a party in a car to another party and then from room to room.

The two conscious people chose to toy with her like a rag doll. The two conscious people chose to violate her body. The two conscious people shared naked pictures of her with her peers for days afterwards while they were sober.

I really don't see how you can claim that she is guilty of rape?!?!?! She didn't rape herself and she didn't rape the boys. She was unconscious. She didn't realize that she was raped until witnesses told her and she saw pictures.

I have to be missing your point...I don't see how one can charge her with sexual assault...
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:22 PM
 
24,891 posts, read 13,327,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
I'm not condoning what the football players did - not at all. But something has always troubled me a little about this argument, and I'm not even sure if it applicable in this case because I haven't followed it. However, if the victim is said to be unable to consent, because being drunk distorts their judgement to the point that they are not responsible for their decisions or actions, why is the same not true for the perpetrator? I am thinking of cases where the guy is so drunk he has no memory of the events.
The girl was unconscious.

The 2 boys were conscious.

The took her from one party in a car to another party in a car and from room to room - while she was unconscious.

People must be held accountable for what they do while drinking.

The girl is guilty of underage drinking and drinking too much that she passed out. This made her more vulnerable to attack, but the attack is the fault of the attackers.

The boys are guilty of underage drinking, open intox in a car, choosing to rape their victim, and one is guilty of taking pictures of her passed out naked body that he shared with classmates for days afterwards.
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:54 PM
 
18,157 posts, read 10,615,903 times
Reputation: 23185
Quote:
Originally Posted by crbcrbrgv View Post
I think the real question is why aren't all these kids thrown into jail for underage drinking before they even talk about the rape trial?

Because, gee, I don't know Wally but it seems as though alcohol always plays a factor.
If teens were sent to jail for underage drinking the high schools would be empty. The rape part is a bit of a bigger deal. Most kids can drink without raping.

I can see here the lack of caring and the watering down of the rape and it's pretty scary. The video of the boy continually calling her the dead girl is awful. She could have had life threatening alcohol poisoning to be that deeply unconscious and instead of helping her or showing concern they tortured her. Those guys didn't seem that drunk on the video, they were quite quick witted and spoke articulately even if what they said was sick.
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