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No. Unless you think God resides in the underworld.
Oh, the *devil* is the spider. Got it. You're saying he - the devil - is just waiting to pounce on our little bug villages unless we pray really hard to God to save us.
I think I understand your point, Ozzy, and as a self-described "secular humanist" and ex-Christian, I'll put in my two cents. I don't imagine we'll reach the same conclusions, but maybe I can shed some light on how things look from "my side".
I think both religious and non-religious people tend to have simplistic views of how the other group sees the world, and misunderstanding can fuel the fire of resentment. A "secular" worldview can mean many things, but it needn't mean: 1) A hatred of Christians; 2) A belief that progress is inevitable; 3) A rejection of ethical standards; 4) An indifference to tradition. For me, "secular" simply means resolving to find practical solutions to the problems facing our society without expecting a god to intervene.
In contrast to the claim that this was or is is a "Christian nation", I'd maintain that American history shows that --- in spite of documented appeals to God/Providence --- we've always been a country built first and foremost on the idea of economic and individual liberty (at least in theory).
Contrast this with European Christian nations of the past, where direct authority flowed from God through the king to his subjects. Usury (i.e, "interest") was considered ungodly. Homosexuals, along with "witches", and political, ethnic, and religious minorities, were often tortured and killed. Public executions and bear-baiting were entertainment suitable for the whole family. Poverty was simply considered God's will, slavery and toil were our human inheritance, and suffering was ennobling.
Reading about the historical behavior of Christians in power can exhaust and overwhelm any sensitive soul as much as watching the litany of crime on the evening news. But I also acknowledge that many Christians have been led by their faith to try to make this world a better place. I wish that rather than blaming secularism for social problems, Christians would continue trying to be good citizens and neighbors.
Oh, the *devil* is the spider. Got it. You're saying he - the devil - is just waiting to pounce on our little bug villages unless we pray really hard to God to save us.
I think I understand your point, Ozzy, and as a self-described "secular humanist" and ex-Christian, I'll put in my two cents. I don't imagine we'll reach the same conclusions, but maybe I can shed some light on how things look from "my side".
I think both religious and non-religious people tend to have simplistic views of how the other group sees the world, and misunderstanding can fuel the fire of resentment. A "secular" worldview can mean many things, but it needn't mean: 1) A hatred of Christians; 2) A belief that progress is inevitable; 3) A rejection of ethical standards; 4) An indifference to tradition. For me, "secular" simply means resolving to find practical solutions to the problems facing our society without expecting a god to intervene.
In contrast to the claim that this was or is is a "Christian nation", I'd maintain that American history shows that --- in spite of documented appeals to God/Providence --- we've always been a country built first and foremost on the idea of economic and individual liberty (at least in theory).
Contrast this with European Christian nations of the past, where direct authority flowed from God through the king to his subjects. Usury (i.e, "interest") was considered ungodly. Homosexuals, along with "witches", and political, ethnic, and religious minorities, were often tortured and killed. Public executions and bear-baiting were entertainment suitable for the whole family. Poverty was simply considered God's will, slavery and toil were our human inheritance, and suffering was ennobling.
Reading about the historical behavior of Christians in power can exhaust and overwhelm any sensitive soul as much as watching the litany of crime on the evening news. But I also acknowledge that many Christians have been led by their faith to try to make this world a better place. I wish that rather than blaming secularism for social problems, Christians would continue trying to be good citizens and neighbors.
Not to mention the fact that poverty and suffering were likely to keep butts in the pews praying for God to help them improve their lot in life.
03-24-2013, 06:46 AM
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n/a posts
What amazes me is that instead of simply walking away with his tail between his legs, the OP keeps coming back to post one line (sometimes two word) responses, all the while ignoring the refutation of his nonsensical claims.
Danger of angry fundamentalism feeding terrorism and wars of aopportunity
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood..."
More and more people these days seem to be adopting a secular worldview. But they are denying that the US was a Christian nation for centuries. Just like England once was, a country whose once great and thriving megachurches are nothing more than empty cathedrals these days.
How can things ever turn sour overnight in a major country, just by adopting secular philosophies? We ignore Nazi Germany and communist Russia because. Because why? Because we have evolved, that's why. Humanity no longer has the "issues" that plagued men back in "those days." That is the secular worldview.
We have been practicing abortion for 40 years and we are doing fine, right. So what is wrong with allowing special rights for homosexuals (a group once defined by psychology as mentally ill).
I described the Christian worldview in another thread as the trapdoor spider analogy. The little bugs decide to build their little bug village on the ground outside of the trapdoor spider's lair, against traditional warnings. But they don't realize that maybe the spider is waiting for more of them before he comes out and pounces on all of them. Maybe he is waiting for the special big bug.
But this depiction of spiritual forces patiently waiting is archaic and should be mocked and ridiculed.
But my question to secularists is this. If we truly are evolving in our humanity, then why does crime seem to be getting worse? Why do more and more people lock their doors at night? Why do fewer parents allow their kids to walk home from school? Why are communities being designed with fewer alleyways and trees? Why are shopping centers being demolished and designed with fewer remote/hidden areas and passageways? Why are we having to take more and more precautions?
How do you explain this discrepancy from a secular point of view?
Ever increasing population leading to greater density. Add to that almost instantaneous 24hr worldwide broadcast of what were local stories a generation ago, and you have sheeple thousands of miles from some horrible crime behaving like it happened right next door.
My question to religionists is this: why hasn't greater exposure to faith over the centuries resulted in mankind being more docile? Why has the message of the golden rule not been more accepted? Why has a "Christian nation" like you claim America is devolved into an aggressive bully? Why does the "religious right" so eagerly support more warfare in the middle east?
What amazes me is that instead of simply walking away with his tail between his legs, the OP keeps coming back to post one line (sometimes two word) responses, all the while ignoring the refutation of his nonsensical claims.
Maybe it's because I'm insane, right?
Hmm, that was a funny thing to say.
Ha.
Ha ha.
Ha ha ha HAAAHHHHAAHHHHAAHHHH
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Danger of angry fundamentalism feeding terrorism and wars of aopportunity
