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Old 04-14-2013, 06:24 PM
 
287 posts, read 185,174 times
Reputation: 87

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Originally Posted by DeadSpeak View Post
Good after he does that one think tank about foreign policy perhaps you could do another about Financial reform. Oh that's right I forgot Ron Paul does not believe in financial reform and is ok with Large corporations doing what they want as long as the gov. does not get in the way of there "freedom" or the ability for them to destroy the "free market" remember folks self regulation is the true way into freedom !!!
Good, reasonable and fair regulation that's actually enforced is what we need. It's human nature for mega business to try and tilt the playing field in their favor, and that doesn't make them bad people. It makes them human. Be that as it may, we have to close the gap of the haves and the have nots, NOT through liberal policies, but by making the plutocrats play by the rules and reinvesting in America.
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Old 04-14-2013, 07:33 PM
 
4,684 posts, read 4,572,979 times
Reputation: 1588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Addams View Post
So you think the government is the only entity in this country that can regulate corporations that you described as politically well-connected.
Precisely - government, by definition, is the agency which society entrusts with the business of governing, which is to say, regulating. If I think government is the only regulating entity in this country, it is because any entity which regulates for this country is by definition a government.

Quote:
And somehow my stance is ridiculous and ill-informed....
Exactly so.
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Old 04-14-2013, 07:39 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,191,640 times
Reputation: 17209
Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
Precisely - government, by definition, is the agency which society entrusts with the business of governing, which is to say, regulating. If I think government is the only regulating entity in this country, it is because any entity which regulates for this country is by definition a government.
As a generalization I understand your point and I agree in the big picture but what do we do when the government refuses to enforce it's regulations?
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Old 04-14-2013, 07:53 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,863 posts, read 46,617,602 times
Reputation: 18521
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
As a generalization I understand your point and I agree in the big picture but what do we do when the government refuses to enforce it's regulations?


It does not say We the Government.

It says We the People, for a very good reason. It is what makes us the most unique nation to ever exist on earth. It is what keeps us from being dictated to, like everyone else.
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Old 04-14-2013, 07:59 PM
 
4,684 posts, read 4,572,979 times
Reputation: 1588
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
As a generalization I understand your point and I agree in the big picture but what do we do when the government refuses to enforce it's regulations?
Well, that's a good question. The facile answer is "vote the bums out". But as I'm on record as saying here and elsewhere, that won't answer now - the structural architecture of the American constitution is not suited to throwing out the bums, because we never get a chance to throw them all out, so there are always a few bums left.

In addition, since Citizens United, it's not at all clear that a full-on bum-tossing effort will have much effect, if it's opposed by deep pockets - and of course, it will be.

This is a prognosis for self-perpetuating oligarchy. But oligarchy isn't necessarily a problem for genuine conservatives, if there are any reasons to believe that we are producing good oligarchs: steeped in the humanities, moral and benevolent, Plato's ideal philosopher kings.

So if you happen to be a conservative, and if you believe that our elite is still capable of producing benevolent, well-rounded aristocrats grounded in the humanities and predisposed to noblesse oblige, then there's no reason to worry.

If you're a populist small-d democrat, or a new-model "conservative" (i.e. classical laissez-faire liberal, or "libertarian"), then there are some grounds for concern. All I can say to those quarters is: constitutional change, by the rules or otherwise. Because, post-Citizens United, there simply is no way to make the government obey the wishes of the multitude: it will only respond to those who have the resources to sway the process.
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Old 04-14-2013, 08:19 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,191,640 times
Reputation: 17209
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
It does not say We the Government.

It says We the People, for a very good reason. It is what makes us the most unique nation to ever exist on earth. It is what keeps us from being dictated to, like everyone else.
I'm really not sure how that answers my question.
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Old 04-14-2013, 08:26 PM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,191,640 times
Reputation: 17209
Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
Well, that's a good question. The facile answer is "vote the bums out". But as I'm on record as saying here and elsewhere, that won't answer now - the structural architecture of the American constitution is not suited to throwing out the bums, because we never get a chance to throw them all out, so there are always a few bums left.

In addition, since Citizens United, it's not at all clear that a full-on bum-tossing effort will have much effect, if it's opposed by deep pockets - and of course, it will be.

This is a prognosis for self-perpetuating oligarchy. But oligarchy isn't necessarily a problem for genuine conservatives, if there are any reasons to believe that we are producing good oligarchs: steeped in the humanities, moral and benevolent, Plato's ideal philosopher kings.

So if you happen to be a conservative, and if you believe that our elite is still capable of producing benevolent, well-rounded aristocrats grounded in the humanities and predisposed to noblesse oblige, then there's no reason to worry.

If you're a populist small-d democrat, or a new-model "conservative" (i.e. classical laissez-faire liberal, or "libertarian"), then there are some grounds for concern. All I can say to those quarters is: constitutional change, by the rules or otherwise. Because, post-Citizens United, there simply is no way to make the government obey the wishes of the multitude: it will only respond to those who have the resources to sway the process.
So government is a failure which means people have to regulate themselves. Since that isn't going to happen either, it's all a moot point.
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Old 04-14-2013, 09:24 PM
 
4,684 posts, read 4,572,979 times
Reputation: 1588
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
So government is a failure which means people have to regulate themselves. Since that isn't going to happen either, it's all a moot point.
But you'll note I don't say government is a failure - I say that the architectural structure of our government is a failure, and then only if you're not a true conservative, and if you don't believe in our ruling class.

The ruling class can change. Or the architecture can be altered.
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:09 AM
 
79,907 posts, read 44,191,640 times
Reputation: 17209
Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
But you'll note I don't say government is a failure - I say that the architectural structure of our government is a failure, and then only if you're not a true conservative, and if you don't believe in our ruling class.

The ruling class can change. Or the architecture can be altered.
Can and will are two entirely different things.
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