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So.... Social Security is a progressive program on the whole
Aren't all social safety-nets inherently progressive? I know people think that Social Security is just a "federal annuity" but it isn't, and the fact that there is differential taxation on Social Security entitlement payments confirms that. Again: Would you expect SNAP to be anything other than progressive?
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
Yes you can twist what is happening to just half of the picture
That's precisely what tax hawks do. They set the context of the discussion by focusing on the taxes, and ignoring the important work that these programs do, because they personally don't value the work that the programs do. They cannot have it both ways.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
but to do that you are ignoring the most important half
No, you are.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
The middle and upper classes as a whole will pay more into it than they get out.
Not all the middle class. And so what? Again, don't these same groups pay more into SNAP then they get out?
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
The lower class as a whole will get out more than they put in. By factual definition this is a progressive program.
But the payroll taxes themselves are regressive. Live with it.
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Originally Posted by michiganmoon
It is disingenuous to pretend that Social Security is not a progressive program.
It is disingenuous to move the goal posts whenever it serves your political rhetoric.
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Originally Posted by pknopp
As I suspected "cuts" only can be understood by you to be something that can't be done responsibly.
You suspect wrong.
And your comment here shows very clearly that you have no intention whatsoever of accepting that anyone can have a reasonable perspective on this issue that conflicts with yours. How convenient. Keep talking to only yourself and you'll never hear anything new. Imagine that.
And your comment here shows very clearly that you have no intention whatsoever of accepting that anyone can have a reasonable perspective on this issue that conflicts with yours. How convenient. Keep talking to only yourself and you'll never hear anything new. Imagine that.
Perhaps your choice of words had a lot to do with that. Perhaps your strawman arguments contributed to my perception of you.
Payroll taxes are regressive. They are the same rate regardless of income. Worse, Social Security tax stops at about $110,000, which means someone earning $100,000 a year pays the tax on every dollar while someone earning $500,000 only pays it on the first $110,000 and those who earn their income only from capital gains doesn't pay anything.
Yes, but SS benefits are a proxy return of capital or annuity payment and are capped as well. There is a maximum monthly benefit. Raise the taxable threshold and you would have to raise the benefit.
Further, the funding formula is posted on the SS website. It is already skewed in favor of the lowest paid workers. If it were an investment, the lower paid workers would be paid a higher effective interest rate than the high earners.
Somedays I'm not sure if you're intentionally misleading or if you just don't get it.
#1 The rich and middle class will most likely get less than they put in - while the poor will most likely get more than they put in. It is very myopic to not look at what is paid out and ignore that the payouts are progressively calculated.
#2 We are talking about paying into a system so that you can benefit specifically from the system - your retirement. Are we now going to whine that someone else isn't paying my retirement for me?
And those evil rich people will get back less than they put in...their payments make it possible that the poor is the only group to get back more than they paid in.
Also the rich don't get extra Social Security benefits for making more than $110,000.
Perhaps we should raise the tax limit higher as one of multiple steps to make Social Security solvent, but let's not spin the issue like a merry-go-round.
How many people only make money from capital gains their entire life? What do you think their Social Security payments will be like?
Are you sure about the bolded part? While the Social Security formula is overall progressive, one must keep in mind that the poor have shorter lifespans than the rich. As a result, many of the poor will die before they reach retirement age.
1. It hurts the poor hardest because they spend all or virtually all of their income to meet basic necessities.
2. It can be set at only a low rate because you cannot get much revenue from the poor, and, consequently, it cannot get a lot of revenue (though I suppose some would consider that to be a good thing).
3. Similarly to the first reason I listed, is the declining marginal utility theory where the first dollar one makes is worth more than the second they make until eventually each additional dollar becomes almost meaningless. So, taxing income over a million dollars wouldn't cause the pain that taxing all income above zero would.
4. Also, some believe that the existing distribution of wealth and income is unfair and taxation should reduce that distribution. Such individuals often cite skyrocketing CEO pay as evidence.
The reality is, of course, that what you call "moronic" someone else values. It isn't always just all about you. We live in community with each other, and failing to respect other people's objective and priorities, especially when there are enough of them to have their priority prevail over yours, is just going to leave you dazed and confused about why things are the way they are. The only way to get what you seem to want - a place where you and only people like you call the shots with regard to society's objectives - is to find a place where you can legitimately set yourself up as king and absolute dictator. Other than that, you do need to come to grips with living in community with others.
when the objective and priorities are wasteful, idiotic, foolish, harmful and straight out destructive of my rights, I don't have to pay a god damn cent.
what about my right? what about my priorities?
the idea that the collective is more important then the individual rights is the complete opposite of ever thing this nation is founded upon.
This isn't cogent, but if you're saying that a moral taxation system isn't important, then you're simply wrong.
how? how is it important to have a system the is meant to be fair, yet is fundamentally unfair?
plus tell us what morality has to do with raise revenue? and please don't give us the old "we are mean"
we don't care about (please insect group name here)"
how is it moral for 10% of this nation to pay 90% of the taxes and have the bottom 50 pay less then 2%?
That's just the point: If it was just me it wouldn't have happened.
Wrong. Neither of us have the right to "call the shots". Rather, "the shots" are called by all of us as a community, and that's naturally going to include some things that we don't want and going to include things we do want that other people don't want. It is ridiculous and utterly without merit to categorize as "moronic" the situations where you cannot obstruct what you personally don't want to happen.
Wrong we all have the right to call the shots, we as individuals, not a community, if not for the individual would not the community not exist?
Further more "it ridiculous and utterly without merit to categorize as "moronic" the situations where you cannot obstruct" since when is not wanting my money to be wasted on failed "green" energy companies, or studies on the genitals of ducks obstructive? or to be used in a fashion that are harmful to my life, liberty, or the pursuit of my happiness?
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