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NO!
How many times do have to repeat myself before you get off this "it's the unions' fault" nonsense.
As long as you wish to argue strawmen I suppose you will be at it for a really long time.
I never argued that it was the "unions fault". I argued that the unions are also at fault here.
Nobody has been able to explain why the Honda plant just a short distance from Detroit has been able to do very well. Nobody has addressed my first post in this thread.
You dont have to look farther than the title to understand the degree of intelligence OP possesses.
Fun fact: Double negatives equal a positive...
In other words: "If liberals are in charge, its not too late to save Detroit."
Leave it to the mask to try to insult the DNC, then confuse himself into making it a compliment.
The truly clueless are the folks on the left, like you, who can't look at what happened in Detroit and figure out why it happened. It is obvious, yet you refuse to see it because the truth doesn't comport with your radical left wing ideology.
The truly clueless are the folks on the left, like you, who can't look at what happened in Detroit and figure out why it happened. It is obvious, yet you refuse to see it because the truth doesn't comport with your radical left wing ideology.
1. What exactly am I refusing to see?
2. As a southern Republican, what might be my radical left wing ideology? Correct grammar?
The truly clueless are the folks on the left, like you, who can't look at what happened in Detroit and figure out why it happened. It is obvious, yet you refuse to see it because the truth doesn't comport with your radical left wing ideology.
As long as you wish to argue strawmen I suppose you will be at it for a really long time.
I never argued that it was the "unions fault". I argued that the unions are also at fault here.
Nobody has been able to explain why the Honda plant just a short distance from Detroit has been able to do very well. Nobody has addressed my first post in this thread.
First of all, Detroits' financial problems have NOTHING do with the unions of AUTOWORKERS - so YOU need to stop arguing that "strawman". Any financial liabilities from union autoworkers are the responsibilities of the COMPANIES involved - NOT the City of Detroit. The fact that you would even bring that up shows that you don't understand Detroit's problem AT ALL. Detroits union liabilities stem from city employee unions - NOT autoworker unions. The city of Detroit is not "on the hook" for automakers pensions or anything else.
Honda has been successful at keeping the unions out of their plants because their company is more "employee friendly" than the American auto companies are. Honda pays well and offers good benefits even without a union, as well as using a management style that empowers workers and makes them feel a part of the process. American companies typically don't do that. GM's Saturn division was formed to emulate that Japanese model and grant that division great autonomy in how it functioned and how it interacted with it's employees. it was very very successful until GM management grew nervous that the Saturn model was not "the way we do business here at GM" and decided to bring Saturn "back into the fold" - at which point the division began going downhill fast (eventually folding).
The American employer/employee relationship is all too often an antagonist one, with both the employers and the unions trying to "give the shaft to the other guy" and get as much as they can squeeze from employee/union negotiations. The Japanese model has an all-together different approach whereby the company tends to care more about it's employees - and thus pay them well without the employees needing to ask for it, and gives them more say in the way the plants are run. This in turn leads to greater employee satisfaction and better worker productivity in the long run. This is why Honda and the other Japanese car makers have not had so much trouble with their employees, had such great success at building quality vehicles and generally have so much greater employee satisfaction.
Despite what the GOP may preach, the company/union struggle is NOT a "one-sided" arrangement - and abuses come from BOTH sides. That doesn't happen at firms like Honda. There's a lot more mutual respect and a more co-equal situation in regards to management and labor (both in terms of mutual respect and compensation). For example Japanese CEOs on average make less than 1/6th what American CEOs make for doing the same type of job and having the same degree of responsibility. In America the big discrepancy between CEO pay and "worker bee" pay shows just how "unbalanced" the pay scales are. CEOs in this country are grossly overpaid. They get that money by "scr*wing" the employees, while union workers (which also are often overpaid") get that money by "scr*wing" their company.
The truly clueless are the folks on the left, like you, who can't look at what happened in Detroit and figure out why it happened. It is obvious, yet you refuse to see it because the truth doesn't comport with your radical left wing ideology.
The real "radical ideology" is in the corporate Republican Corporate Party and your "answers" are nothing but anti-labor Limbaugh/Fox talking points. Nobody really believes them, yet you continue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBalfor
First of all, Detroits' financial problems have NOTHING do with the unions of AUTOWORKERS - so YOU need to stop arguing that "strawman". -------------------
Honda has been successful at keeping the unions out of their plants because their company is more "employee friendly" than the American auto companies are. Honda pays well and offers good benefits even without a union, as well as using a management style that empowers workers and makes them feel a part of the process. -------------------------------
The American employer/employee relationship is all too often an antagonist one, with both the employers and the unions trying to "give the shaft to the other guy" and get as much as they can squeeze from employee/union negotiations. The Japanese model has an all-together different approach whereby the company tends to care more about it's employees - and thus pay them well without the employees needing to ask for it, and gives them more say in the way the plants are run. ------------------
Ken
These are very important key points. Non-union "worker-friendly" companies, including places in Detroit where I have worked, have no need for unionization, but long ago unions came into being because of the other guys - the sniffing "greedy-lazy-demanding-ungrateful-workers-who-must-be-whipped-into-shape" types of management - a holdover from our Dickensian European roots. These uber-puritanical mentalities push the idea that idleness (vacation time for instance) is a sin.
In the currently successful German economy, workers sit on corporate boards. American manufacturers have historically adopted the sweat-shop "fear-as-motivation" idea as the most productive system, rather than more progressive ideas being used in other countries. In other words, fear is the best (and easiest to manage) motivation for spurring worker productivity. This is one reason why we are in the process of being eclipsed in worker satisfaction. I don't understand this ubiquitous notion by seemingly normal Americans that unions came into being solely because of worker greed. Average Cost Of A Factory Worker In The U.S., China And Germany [INFOGRAPHIC] BMW opens factory for older German workers | Reuters
The real "radical ideology" is in the corporate Republican Corporate Party and your "answers" are nothing but anti-labor Limbaugh/Fox talking points. Nobody really believes them, yet you continue.
What a totally lame rebuttal. Your extreme bias is showing that you wouldn't know the truth if it smacked you in the face.
Sure, many pensions are underfunded, but the difference is those cities are NOT broke the way that Detroit is. Detroit just doesn't have anywhere near sufficient revenue coming in. THAT'S the difference. Those governments have upcoming issues to deal with, but they will NOT result in bankruptcy. Detroits' problems are way, way worse. Detroit just doesn't have enough people - especially tax paying people - to fund much of anything, let alone their pension obligations.
Ken
Detroit is the worst-many are not too many years away from the same mess (pensions, not states, but it will require draconian pension cuts to avoid BK). 6 states/large cities are >40% underfunded.
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