“Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood (Hispanic, companies)

[2mares]

Originally Posted by tonygeorgia

Here is the article. I could not post the entire discussion on here

Interviewing Helen Smith On: “Men on Strike: Why Men Are Boycotting Marriage, Fatherhood, and the American Dream – and Why It Matters.” | Right Wing News

If a man came to you and he said, “Listen, I think marriage is great. There’s no downside to it.” What would you say to him? Not telling him not to do it, but maybe saying, “Have you thought about the other side of this?” What are some of the negatives for men in marriage that are making men less likely to marry?

Well, the first negatives are the legal ones. If man does get divorced, he’s much more likely to pay alimony. For example, about 97 percent of alimony is paid by men, only about 3 percent by women. Men tend to lose with their children more often. Only about 10 percent of men get custody of their children if there’s a divorce. In marriage, …if a man finds out a couple of years down the line that the child isn’t his, the state, in certain states — not most states — a man can be forced to pay for that child even though that child is not his. At the same time, if he wants a vasectomy — now this one is hard because it’s actually not on the books — but if a married man goes to a doctor and wants a vasectomy, most doctors in this country will not perform a vasectomy unless that man gets his wife to sign off.

…If he wants to leave the marriage, a woman can just point her finger and tell her lawyer that a man committed child abuse, domestic abuse — and a lot of times it’s just taken as a given. If a woman wants a restraining order against a man in a marriage, men most often are taken to jail when, you know, the woman calls the police. However, studies actually show that violence in domestic relations is almost 50% from men and 50% from women. If a woman gets angry for any reason, she can simply accuse a man and men are just assumed guilty in our society.

You need to actually use facts if your going to give that kind of advice. Now if he asked your biased uninformed opinion on divorce........

My advice would be to not take marriage lightly. To be sure this is a person you love, trust and want to spend the rest of your life with because marriage is a great commitment that comes with great responsibilities and great consequences that affect not only yourself but those you hold dear. Once you are married it is no longer about you because you and your spouse become one. If you see that as a negative your not ready to get married.

[Camlon]

Originally Posted by nearnorth

Nice cherry picking. I'm going to assume that in your Google search you also saw the studies to which I'm referring.

Nope, I didn't find anything else.

Looking at happiness marriage women I found this, which supports my message that married women are happier as well.
http://img.medscape.com/pi/features/...ublic/fig9.jpg

And if looked at happiness marriage women chart then the first I found was the chart I posted.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...riage_both.png

Why don't you show some data? If you post a link to a study, then tell us where we can find the data.

[GoCUBS1]

Originally Posted by udolipixie

Egh in my experiences/observations being assertive doesn't really matter. I state really since I find depending on the amount of assertiveness the guys wouldn't be saying that subservient/inferior/lesser stuff to your face but will clamoring when it's male-only. I recall it was quite amusing to me when I recorded a particular male-only environment and upon showing it to a gal who thought she was treated as an equal cry after hearing her supposed trusted mentor regard her as lesser because she has a vagina and insult her..well the entire female gender really..in quite a misogynistic way. She was quite shocked to realize they only treated her as an equal out of policy not because they actually saw her as one.

I'm guessing by the "I don't do anything to obscure my femininity, I embrace it" you've defined femininity as the patriarchal norm has and thinking wearing dresses/skirts is embracing it?

Yes, being assertive and experienced matters. Also, your "gal" who "cries" (instead of fights back) about things like that may not be taking the right professional approach. If she cried at work, that is not acceptable IMO. Secretly recording work conversations is also not acceptable.

Regarding your bolded - My point was that I do not try to "blend" into a male-dominated environment by trying to appear more masculine. I wear whatever I want, whenever I want.... My defined femininity is defined by ME, no matter to whom you want to ascribe ownership. I was born wanting to wear pretty things - before I even met a male (had all sisters and no father). When I am alone in my house, I wear flowers in my hair and pretty heels just for fun, even though no one else will see it. I naturally enjoy these things, not because some societal patriarchal norm dictated it.

Your reality does not jive with what I have experienced as an educated, confident, experienced, respected professional in my field. I am not saying it doesn't happen - just that I have not seen it happen to the level that you are describing. And it may have happened less to me than to others - as I said - I don't put up with that sh*t and I know how to handle it so that the outcome would not be pleasant for the idiot purveyor of the insult.... I would look them in the eye and call them on the table for it, which I have done on occasion. But I would never cry.

[capitol]

Originally Posted by Lilac110

As you like to say, source?

Here's mine: Domestic Violence Fact Sheet - National Coalition Against Domestic Violence

85% of domestic violence victims are women. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

REFERENCES EXAMINING ASSAULTS BY WOMEN ON THEIR SPOUSES OR MALE PARTNERS: AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY

[udolipixie]

Originally Posted by GoCUBS1

Yes, being assertive and experienced matters. Also, your "gal" who "cries" (instead of fights back) about things like that may not be taking the right professional approach. If she cried at work, that is not acceptable IMO. Secretly recording work conversations is also not acceptable.

Regarding your bolded - My point was that I do not try to "blend" into a male-dominated environment by trying to appear more masculine. I wear whatever I want, whenever I want.... My defined femininity is defined by ME, no matter to whom you want to ascribe ownership. I was born wanting to wear pretty things - before I even met a male (had all sisters and no father). When I am alone in my house, I wear flowers in my hair and pretty heels just for fun, even though no one else will see it. I naturally enjoy these things, not because some societal patriarchal norm dictated it.

Your reality does not jive with what I have experienced as an educated, confident, experienced, respected professional in my field. I am not saying it doesn't happen - just that I have not seen it happen to the level that you are describing. And it may have happened less to me than to others - as I said - I don't put up with that sh*t and I know how to handle it so that the outcome would not be pleasant for the idiot purveyor of the insult.... I would look them in the eye and call them on the table for it, which I have done on occasion. But I would never cry.

Again different experiences being assertive and experienced has not matter one iota other than having them say it behind your back instead of in your face.

Oh she fought back after crying (at the party). She also realized for herself that no matter what guys generally will not genuinely or willingly regard a gal as an equal but guys can treat gals as equals begrudgingly if forced to. for her on that.

As for your acceptability: She didn't cry at work she cried at this sorority party I was having as I played her the recording after getting tired of her whole 'men do regard women as equals' bs in my opinion. The recording is acceptable in terms of legality in my state it's the whole if you're within earshot and the people don't make the effort to keep their conversation private.

As I said different experiences as your reality doesn't jive with what I have experienced/observed nor what almost all the gals I've encountered in many states have experienced.

[udolipixie]

Originally Posted by capitol

REFERENCES EXAMINING ASSAULTS BY WOMEN ON THEIR SPOUSES OR MALE PARTNERS: AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY

Is this a meme or something? I've seen this reposted so many times as support of the whole "women and men domestic violence are (about) equal". Most of the data is outdated from the 80s or uses CTS/reciporocal-mutual-initiated violence bs where self defense or an attempt to hit is reciporocal/mutual violence and protecting one's children is initiating violence such as if a mother defends her daughter from the father's sexual molestation she's the initiator/perpetrator of the violence.

From your link:
"George, M. J. (1999). A victimization survey of female perpetrated assaults in the United Kingdom. Aggressive Behavior, 25, 67-79. (A representative sample of 718 men and 737 women completed the CTS"

[capitol]

Originally Posted by udolipixie

Is this a meme or something? I've seen this reposted so many times as support of the whole "women and men domestic violence are (about) equal". Most of the data is outdated from the 80s or uses CTS/reciporocal-mutual-initiated violence bs where self defense or an attempt to hit is reciporocal/mutual violence and protecting one's children is initiating violence such as if a mother defends her daughter from the father's sexual molestation she's the initiator/perpetrator of the violence.

From your link:
"George, M. J. (1999). A victimization survey of female perpetrated assaults in the United Kingdom. Aggressive Behavior, 25, 67-79. (A representative sample of 718 men and 737 women completed the CTS"

My link has 286 studies linked and you focus only one of them? There are other studies on there.

[udolipixie]

Originally Posted by capitol

My link has 286 studies linked and you focus only one of them? There are other studies on there.

I didn't focus only on one of them. Me quoting one doesn't mean I only focused on one especially when I state "Most of the data is outdated from the 80s or uses CTS".

Did you just look at what I quoted and not what I typed above?

[nifear]

Originally Posted by capitol

My link has 286 studies linked and you focus only one of them? There are other studies on there.

Found these, not even going into PubMed and looking into methods:
Archer, J. (2002). Sex differences in physically aggressive acts between heterosexual partners: A meta-analytic review. Aggression and Violent Behavior, 7, 213-351. (Analyzing responses to the Conflict Tactic Scale and using a data set somewhat different from the previous 2000 publication, the author reports that women are more likely than men to throw something at their partners, as well as slap, kick, bite, punch and hit with an object. Men were more likely than women to strangle, choke, or beat up their partners.)

Archer, J., & Ray, N. (1989). Dating violence in the United Kingdom: a preliminary study. Aggressive Behavior, 15, 337-343. (Twenty three dating couples completed the Conflict Tactics scale. Results indicate that women were significantly more likely than their male partners to express physical violence. Authors also report that, "measures of partner agreement were high" and that the correlation between past and present violence was low.)

Arias, I., Samios, M., & O'Leary, K. D. (1987). Prevalence and correlates of physical aggression during courtship. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2, 82-90. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 270 undergraduates <95 men, 175 women> and found 30% of men and 49% of women reported using some form of aggression in their dating histories with a greater percentage of women engaging in severe physical aggression.)

Arias, I., & Johnson, P. (1989). Evaluations of physical aggression among intimate dyads. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 4, 298-307. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale-CTS- with a sample of 103 male and 99 female undergraduates. Both men and women had similar experience with dating violence, 19% of women and 18% of men admitted being physically aggressive. A significantly greater percentage of women thought self-defense was a legitimate reason for men to be aggressive, while a greater percentage of men thought slapping was a legitimate response for a man or woman if their partner was sexually unfaithful.)

Arriaga, X. B., & Foshee, V. A. (2004). Adolescent dating violence. Do adolescents follow in their friends' or their parents' footsteps? Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 19, 162-184. (A modified version of Conflict Tactics Scale was administered on two occasions, 6 months apart, to 526 adolescents, <280 girls, 246 boys> whose median age was 13. Results reveal that 28% of girls reported perpetrating violence with their partners <17% moderate, 11% severe> on occasion one, while 42% of girls reported perpetrating violence <25% moderate, 17% severe> on occasion two. For boys, 11% reported perpetrating violence <6% moderate, 5% severe> on occasion one, while 21% reported perpetrating violence <6% moderate, 15% severe> on occasion two. In terms of victimization, 33% of girls, and 38% of boys reported being victims of partner aggression on occasion one and 47% of girls and 49% of boys reported victimization on occasion two.

Billingham, R. E., Bland, R., & Leary, A. (1999). Dating Violence at three time periods: 1976, 1992, 1996. Psychological Reports, 85, 574-578. (Data was collected from college students in 1986 <401 women, 202 men>, 1992 <210 women, 204 men> and 1996 <342 women, 229 men>. Subjects completed the CTS and results reveal a significant decrease in partner violence over a 10 year period. However, in terms of subjects' self reported violence and report of partner violence, women were consistently more aggressive than men.)

Brinkerhoff, M., & Lupri, E. (1988). Interspousal violence. Canadian Journal of Sociology, 13, 407-434. (Examined Interspousal violence in a representative sample of 562 couples in Calgary, Canada. Used Conflict Tactics Scale and found twice as much wife-to-husband as husband-to-wife severe violence <10.7% vs 4.8%>. The overall violence rate for husbands was 10.3% while the overall violence rate for wives was 13.2%. Violence was significantly higher in younger and childless couples. Results suggest that male violence decreased with higher educational attainment, while female violence increased.)

Brutz, J., & Ingoldsby, B. B. (1984). Conflict resolution in Quaker families. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 46, 21-26. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 288 Quakers <130 men, 158 women> and found a slightly higher rate of female to male violence <15.2%> than male to female violence <14.6%>.)

Burke, P. J., Stets, J. E., & Pirog-Good, M. A. (1988). Gender identity, self-esteem, and physical and sexual abuse in dating relationships. Social Psychology Quarterly, 51, 272-285. (A sample of 505 college students <298 women, 207 men> completed the CTS. Authors reports that they found "no significant difference between men and women in reporting inflicting or sustaining physical abuse." Specifically, within a one year period they found that 14% of the men and 18% of the women reported inflicting physical abuse, while 10% of the men and 14% of the women reported sustaining physical abuse.)

Capaldi, D. M. & Owen, L. D. (2001). Physical aggression in a community sample of at-risk young couples: Gender comparisons for high frequency, injury, and fear. Journal of Family Psychology, 15 (3), 425-440. Drawn from a community based at-risk sample, 159 young couples were assessed with the Conflict Tactics scale and measures of self reported injuries. Findings indicated that 9.4% of men and 13.2% of women perpetrated frequent physical aggression toward their partners. Contrary to expectations, 13% of men and 9% of women, indicated that they were physically injured at least once. Authors report "2% of the men and none of the women indicate that they had been hurt by their partners between five and nine times."

Carrado, M., George, M. J., Loxam, E., Jones, L., & Templar, D. (1996). Aggression in British heterosexual relationships: a descriptive analysis. Aggressive Behavior, 22, 401-415. (In a representative sample of British men <n=894> and women <n=971> it was found, using a modified version of the CTS, that 18% of the men and 13% of the women reported being victims of physical violence at some point in their heterosexual relationships. With regard to current relationships, 11% of men and 5% of women reported being victims of partner aggression.)

Cascardi, M., Avery-Leaf, S., O'Leary, K. D., & Slep, A. M. S. (1999). Factor Structure and convergent validity of the Conflict Tactics Scale in high school students. Psychological Assessment, 11, 546-555. (A sample of 2320 high school students <1,180 males, 1,140 females> from seven high schools in Long Island, New York were assessed with a modified CTS. A significantly greater number of women <37.8%> compared to <22.5%> men reported perpetrating physical aggression toward their dating partners. Of specific note 18.1% of women compared to 4.3% of men reported slapping their partners and 16.9% of women compared to 5.5% of men reported "kicking, biting or hitting" their partners.)

Cascardi, M., Langhinrichsen, J., & Vivian, D. (1992). Marital aggression: Impact, injury, and health correlates for husbands and wives. Archives of Internal Medicine, 152, 1178-1184. (Examined 93 couples seeking marital therapy. Found using the CTS and other information that 71% reported at least one incident of physical aggression in past year. While men and women were equally likely to perpetrate violence, women reported more severe injuries. Half of the wives and two thirds of the husbands reported no injuries as a result of all aggression, but wives sustained more injuries as a result of mild aggression.)

Caulfield, M. B., & Riggs, D. S. (1992). The assessment of dating aggression: Empirical evaluation of the Conflict Tactics Scale. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 4, 549-558. (Used CTS with a sample of 667 unmarried college students <268 men and 399 women> and found on a number of items significantly higher responses of physical violence on part of women. For example, 19% of women slapped their male partner while 7% of men slapped their partners, 13% of women kicked, bit, or hit their partners with a fist while only 3.1% of men engaged in this activity.)

Cercone, J. J., Beach, S. R. H., & Arias, I. (2005). Gender Symmetry in Dating Intimate Partner Violence: Does Behavior Imply Similar Constructs? Violence and Victims, 20 (2) 207-218. (A sample of 414 college students <189 men, 225 women> responded to the CTS2. Results reveal that male and female subjects were equally likely to be perpetrators of minor violence in intimate dating relationships, but women were twice as likely as men to perpetrate severe violence <15.11% vs 7.41%>).

Chang, D. F., Shen, B-J., & Takeuchi, D. T. (2009). Prevalence and demographic correlates of intimate partner violence in Asian Americans. International Journal of Law & Psychiatry, 32, 167-175. (Study reports the first national estimate of IPV among Asian Americans. Sample consisted of 1470 <47% men, 53% women> individuals of varying Asian ethnicities who responded to items on the CTS. Data reveals that 5.02% of men and 8.48% of women perpetrated minor violence on their partners. With regard to severe violence women were more than twice as likely as men to perpetrate violence <1.54% vs .71%>).

Chermack, St. T., Walton, M. A., Fuller, B. E., & Blow, F. C. (2001). Correlates of expressed and received violence across relationship types among men and women substance abusers. Psychology of Addictive Behavior, 15, 140-151. (A sample of substance abusers <126 men, 126 women> ranging in age from 17-83 completed a modified version of the CTS. Results reveal no differences in expressed or received partner violence for men and women.)

Clark, M. L., Beckett, J., Wells, M., & Dungee-Anderson, D. (1994). Courtship Violence among African-American college students. Journal of Black Psychology, 20 (3), 264-281. (A sample of 311 African-American college students <76 men, 235 women> responded to the CTS. Findings reveal that 41% of men and 33% of women reported being physically abused by a dating partner.)

Cogan, R., & Ballinger III, B. C. (2006). Alcohol problems and the differentiation of partner, stranger, and general violence. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 21 (7), 924-935. (A sample of 457 college men and 958 college women completed the CTS. Results revealed that significantly more men than women <35.4% vs 26.0%> reported being victimized by their partners.)

Coleman, D. H., & Straus, M. A. (1986). Marital Power, Conflict, and Violence in a Nationally Representative Sample of American Couples. Violence and Victims, 1, 141-157. A sample of 2,143 couples from a 1975 nationally representative survey responded to the CTS and a measure developed by Blood and Wolfe to assess marital power. Couples were classified as equalitarian, female-dominant, male-dominant, or divided power. Equalitarian couples had the lowest rates of partner violence while female-dominant couples had the highest rate of partner violence followed by male dominant couples.)

Cunradi, C. B., Caetano, R., Clark, C. L., & Schafer, J. (1999). Alcohol-related problems and intimate partner violence among white, Black, and Hispanic couples in the U.S. Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research, 23, 1492-1501. (A probability sample of 1440 couples <565 white, 358 Black, 527 Hispanic> was obtained from the 1995 National Alcohol Survey. Subjects completed the Conflict Tactics Scale. Ethnicity results reveal that overall rates of partner aggression were similar for whites and Hispanic while Black rates were significantly higher. In terms of gender, white men and women had similar rates of partner aggression, Hispanic women were somewhat more aggressive than Hispanic men and Black men were more aggressive than Black women. Alcohol related problems were a predictor of intimate partner violence in Black couples.)

and that is just A - C citations

Also, a lot of those sources are reviews of already posted previous studies, so that data is redundant.

[GoCUBS1]

Originally Posted by udolipixie

Again different experiences being assertive and experienced has not matter one iota other than having them say it behind your back instead of in your face.

Oh she fought back after crying (at the party). She also realized for herself that no matter what guys generally will not genuinely or willingly regard a gal as an equal but guys can treat gals as equals begrudgingly if forced to. for her on that.

As for your acceptability: She didn't cry at work she cried at this sorority party I was having as I played her the recording after getting tired of her whole 'men do regard women as equals' bs in my opinion. The recording is acceptable in terms of legality in my state it's the whole if you're within earshot and the people don't make the effort to keep their conversation private.

As I said different experiences as your reality doesn't jive with what I have experienced/observed nor what almost all the gals I've encountered in many states have experienced.

I am not out to combat what every man says behind my back. There are plenty of times when I'll tell an off-color sexist joke about men to my girlfriends. Heck, I'll tell my hubby and male friends. I have a mouth and make fun of all sorts of people - the PC police would not like me. I am not always politically correct at parties - but I am professional in the work environment and, for the most part, I have been treated professionally by the thousands of professional, heterosexual men with whom I have worked in the U.S. (in all regions). I did have some trouble with leading groups of men while working in certain European countries, but for the purposes of this thread, I was assuming American, heterosexual men.

BTW, the fact that your friend was crying at a sorority party about what one group of men said about one woman in your secretly recorded conversation that you replayed at the sorority party in order to make a sweeping generalization about how all (but a miniscule number) of men treat all women - well, this whole thing makes me think that maybe you are coming from a more limited perspective and experience than I had originally thought.... Good luck to you.