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It seems as if we've all reached an impasse on the Zimmerman v. Martin case; certain individuals such as myself believe that logically speaking, Zimmerman was indeed protecting himself but nonethless he is guilty of instigating the scenario along with being morally wrong but I'll try to skip pass my reasonings. My question now is when is Self-Defense Justified? Is it possible for me to plan on hiding in someone's closet to perform a prank, and they happen to kill me in the process, justified murder? Or lets say, I'm walking around in someone's backyard at night time looking for my basketball and the homeowner comes out unnoticed, and out of fear I push them to the ground and they shoot me, is that justified murder? Like I said, I believe Zimmermans case is justified although he's morally guilty, but nonethless I'd like a few examples of justified murder that aren't limited to one breaking into ones dwelling.
I know some will say murder is never justified, but please refrain from commenting in this thread if you subscribe to this ideology.
Your premise is wrong. Zimmerman instigated nothing. Neither is he "morally guilty" (whatever that means).
Zimmerman was acting as a citizen concerned for the saftey of his neighbors, who had been victimized by crime, in a string of recent break-ins, one being a home invasion while a young mother huddled in a closet with her child as the perpetrators, two young black males (a fact, not a supposition) burglarized her home, and attempted to get to her.
It was for this reason that he, along with others in the community, organized a Neighborhood Watch program.
As Zimmerman left that night on a trip to the store, he observed Martin, appearing to be wandering aimlessly (in the rain) and looking into windows. As he told the police dispatcher moments later, Martin appeared to be "up to no good." This was justification for calling the police, which they had been instructed to do if they observed suspicious activity, and they were specifically told not to confront, but to call. This is important, because some have asked why Zimmerman didn't simply confront Martin and ask him who he was and what was he doing. They have asserted that had he done that, Martin may still be alive, and the situation averted.
As Zimmerman spoke to the dispatcher, Martin noticed Zimmerman. By this time, he was on the phone to his girlfriend, and told him he was being watched by a "creepy assed cracka."
Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "He's coming toward me. He's coming to check me out ... " Zimmeman was still in his truck. Martin passes his truck, and then he runs, as Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "****, he's running." It was at this point that Zimmerman got out of his truck to try to find out where Martin was going (Martin headed for the "back entrance," he told the dispatcher, who then asks if Zimmerman is following him. Zimmeman answeres "yes," to which the dispatcher replies, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman says, "Okay." He tells the dispatcher, "I don't know where this kid is." He terminates his call and heads back to his truck.
It was at this time that Martin surprised Zimmerman and punched him in the face. Zimmeman went down, and Martin mounted him and began his "ground and pound" on Zimmerman. There was no provocation for this on Zimmerman's part, and none was provided by the prosecution.
Murder is the shedding of innocent blood. Self defense, resulting in the death of the perpetrator, is therefore not murder. Martin was guilty of felony assault, and had he lived, would likely have been charged with that crime.
The founders believed in the natural right of self-defense, and it is one reason (though not the only reason) for the Second Amendment.
Clearly, Zimmerman had a right to defend himself against this unprovoked attack by Trayvon Martin. He feared for his life, or at the very least, great bodily harm. Martin had told him, "You're going to die tonight, mother f---er."
this is a tough question to answer because everyone is different. the standard is that if you feel that you are threatened with severe bodily harm or death, then you are justified in using extreme force to stop the attacker. and that is the rub, everyones threshold is different. for instance, people like mac muz might have a high threshold, where as someone like katiana might have a low threshold as to fear for their life. and these are just examples, so no insult intended to either of you. then it becomes a matter of convincing a jury that you felt you needed to use extreme force to stop the attack. and juries are notorious for varying standards. in the end you have to do what is best for you in any given situation, and hope that things turn out in the end. i personally would prefer never to have to make the decision to take anothers life, as it is the hardest one that anyone ever has to make, and in the vast majority of occasions, is has to take place in less than a second or two.
Whaaaaa?? I have been a pubic health nurse in some neighborhoods that would really creep out many of the "he-men" on this forum, armed with nothing but my nursing bag!
Quote:
Originally Posted by totsuka
Morally wrong? What does that mean exactly? He was a watch guy in an area that had numerous break-ins and saw someone that was acting suspicious. He reported it to the police and then was attacked by Martin. Martin's gf revealed that he thought Mr. Zimmerman was at first a police officer of security guard but he ignored her advice to run away. Instead he attacked Mr. Zimmerman who defended himself.
1. GZ was not acting in any neighborhood watch capacity that night.
2. He violated the rules of NW by following TM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy
Your premise is wrong. Zimmerman instigated nothing. Neither is he "morally guilty" (whatever that means).
Zimmerman was acting as a citizen concerned for the saftey of his neighbors, who had been victimized by crime, in a string of recent break-ins, one being a home invasion while a young mother huddled in a closet with her child as the perpetrators, two young black males (a fact, not a supposition) burglarized her home, and attempted to get to her.
It was for this reason that he, along with others in the community, organized a Neighborhood Watch program.
As Zimmerman left that night on a trip to the store, he observed Martin, appearing to be wandering aimlessly (in the rain) and looking into windows. As he told the police dispatcher moments later, Martin appeared to be "up to no good." This was justification for calling the police, which they had been instructed to do if they observed suspicious activity, and they were specifically told not to confront, but to call. This is important, because some have asked why Zimmerman didn't simply confront Martin and ask him who he was and what was he doing. They have asserted that had he done that, Martin may still be alive, and the situation averted.
As Zimmerman spoke to the dispatcher, Martin noticed Zimmerman. By this time, he was on the phone to his girlfriend, and told him he was being watched by a "creepy assed cracka."
Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "He's coming toward me. He's coming to check me out ... " Zimmeman was still in his truck. Martin passes his truck, and then he runs, as Zimmerman tells the dispatcher, "****, he's running." It was at this point that Zimmerman got out of his truck to try to find out where Martin was going (Martin headed for the "back entrance," he told the dispatcher, who then asks if Zimmerman is following him. Zimmeman answeres "yes," to which the dispatcher replies, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman says, "Okay." He tells the dispatcher, "I don't know where this kid is." He terminates his call and heads back to his truck.
It was at this time that Martin surprised Zimmerman and punched him in the face. Zimmeman went down, and Martin mounted him and began his "ground and pound" on Zimmerman. There was no provocation for this on Zimmerman's part, and none was provided by the prosecution.
Murder is the shedding of innocent blood. Self defense, resulting in the death of the perpetrator, is therefore not murder. Martin was guilty of felony assault, and had he lived, would likely have been charged with that crime.
The founders believed in the natural right of self-defense, and it is one reason (though not the only reason) for the Second Amendment.
Clearly, Zimmerman had a right to defend himself against this unprovoked attack by Trayvon Martin. He feared for his life, or at the very least, great bodily harm. Martin had told him, "You're going to die tonight, mother f---er."
BS! Zimmerman was not acting as a NW person that night, and he was not following NW policy. Don't give NW a bad name. Enough of GZ's fairy tale about being concerned about his neighborhood. He was a wannabe cop.See my response to totsuka.
Zimmerman initiated the entire incident by calling the police (perhaps justified) and following TM (totally unjustified). The rest of your post is pure speculation, save for the quotes from the phone calls.
Whaaaaa?? I have been a pubic health nurse in some neighborhoods that would really creep out many of the "he-men" on this forum, armed with nothing but my nursing bag!
1. GZ was not acting in any neighborhood watch capacity that night. 2. He violated the rules of NW by following TM.
BS! Zimmerman was not acting as a NW person that night, and he was not following NW policy. Don't give NW a bad name. Enough of GZ's fairy tale about being concerned about his neighborhood. He was a wannabe cop.See my response to totsuka.
Zimmerman initiated the entire incident by calling the police (perhaps justified) and following TM (totally unjustified). The rest of your post is pure speculation, save for the quotes from the phone calls.
If he wasn't operating in his capacity of NW, then he wasn't violating the rules of NW. Those two lines put together indicate a total lack of logic.
Whaaaaa?? I have been a pubic health nurse in some neighborhoods that would really creep out many of the "he-men" on this forum, armed with nothing but my nursing bag!
I only carry a weapon when I also must go to places like this.
You might not feel comfortable with the idea but have you ever considered a CCW for your protection ?
I was surprised when I moved back to the big city how many wives carried a purse handgun.
The main reason I train and carry is for protection when I go to the hood due to work needs.
Well if liberals get their way it will never be justified. Just call 911 and cower and hope you aren't killed before the police arrive. Open season for criminals is the goal it appears. They are doing everything in their power now to let them have free reign on society.
Cower? Youre being politically correct.
I call it Rolling Over And Playing Dead.
Libby's act like this never happens, until it actually does and then they blame the gun toting right, instead of all the thug gangs they protected with their poosy ass social programs.
Tired of these fockers. They're killing this country and killing the future of our children.
Take a minute and think about that you poosy ass fockers. Your great grandparents would slit your throats if they knew youd be this whacked out.
Whaaaaa?? I have been a pubic health nurse in some neighborhoods that would really creep out many of the "he-men" on this forum, armed with nothing but my nursing bag!
1. GZ was not acting in any neighborhood watch capacity that night.
2. He violated the rules of NW by following TM.
BS! Zimmerman was not acting as a NW person that night, and he was not following NW policy. Don't give NW a bad name. Enough of GZ's fairy tale about being concerned about his neighborhood. He was a wannabe cop.See my response to totsuka.
Zimmerman initiated the entire incident by calling the police (perhaps justified) and following TM (totally unjustified). The rest of your post is pure speculation, save for the quotes from the phone calls.
Not illegal, not illegal and not illegal. You can fault someone who has done everything perfectly legal.
When you are out doing your Vigilante stuff, and the person you are harassing starts kicking your a$$, could that be when?
^^^^^
This. When you START a fight, then you are getting your ass kicked, it is not just justifiable to then shoot that person. Take your beat down down like a man, since you we're so big and bad. But this is why I don't like SYG laws. They allow you to pick pick fights then kill the person. I know that wasn't zimmermans defense, but it definitely played a part in his actions.
Easy - self defense is justified when you're actually defending yourself from an aggressive person. Zimmerman lost the claim when he decided to pursue Martin for no good reason. The women who attacked Rayon Mcintosh lost self defense when they decided to jump over the McDonald's counter to follow him. That woman who got tasered by the Atlanta mall security guard lost any right to self defense when she decided to attack him.
Do people not understand the simple rule of "don't start nothing, won't *be* nothing"?
Now tough guys like this KUChief fella couldn't do that.
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