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Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
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Originally Posted by wutitiz
If that's the best counter you can manage, you lose. Conservatives don't mind spending to get quality on things that are actually legit government functions--military, police, courts, parks, roads, etc.
In other words, conservatives believe in SPEND! SPEND! SPEND! when it suits THEIR agenda.
And OVER-SPENDIING on legit government functions for unneeded things is hardly evidence of belief in less spending.
I think your counter loses.
Then again, I guess I shouldn't expect much of people so accepting of "Well, I don't remember" as an excuse for wrong doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz
The table I cited goes back to LBJ? You're trying to argue that it's no good because other tables in the pdf only go back to 1990? Seriously?? It's only 9:51 where I am, way too early to be drinking. Even if you're on the East Coast 12:51 is early.
If that's the best counter you can manage, you lose.
its nice to see some honesty. Im a conservative and I hate the fact that it seems like every conservative politician forgets to think before they speak.
Left-leaner here. My gripes: Like the OP, reluctance of many if not most on the left to criticize lslam. Islam is not compatible with the liberal western society. Also, to give Obama a pass for his many 'Bushisms' that they derided Bush for. If it's a bad policy/decision, it's bad no matter who is at the helm or whether or not you voted for him.
Another thread on here reminds me of some of the things about many fellow lefties that annoys me. This is about what people within your area on the spectrum believe. If you are a conservative, it's about some problems you have with other conservatives, not libs or libertarians or socialists. If you are not what some of you call a "RINO," this is not about your beefs with those moderates within the GOP, all ten of them who are left. If you are a liberal, it's not about your beefs with Christian conservatives or libertarians, it's about those with whom you generally agree.
Here are a few of my beefs with other liberals/progressives:
1. The hesitancy or downright refusal of many on the left to criticize Islam. No, I'm sorry, what we see in Afghanistan or some other nations is not a "perversion" of "true" Islam. I take a backseat to no one here in my criticism of fundamentalist Christianity, but this game of equating the Westboro Church or this comparison of Jihadists and Timothy McVeigh is just silly. Most people seem to recognize this.
2. Refusal to be critical of unions, particularly public sector unions. I'm a big fan of collective bargaining. I'm not a big fan of unions, in part because they have some of the same hierarchical trappings of other big institutions. And let me throw this out there: If you really believe in the idea that government can make peoples' lives better, you should be the first ones supporting reform of work rules in the various states. When there is a public employee who is incompetent, or worse, blatantly abusive of vulnerable populations serviced by state and local governments, the process of removing that individual should not be long and drawn out. It is insane how long cancerous and downright dangerous public employees can remain in their jobs, harming the public good.
3. Refusal to speak bluntly about issues that involve particular minority groups. While it is a small percentage of blacks committing crimes, the percentage of crimes involving black men is astounding. Let's talk honestly about it. Let's talk about "the soft bigotry of low expectations" that I've seen first-hand in our public education system that disproportionately affects blacks.
I liked your post until I got to the point. Small percentage? I think thats an incorrect statement. Also, what about the self-loving, race-card playing, racist bigots that are everywhere? The education system is trying its best to get blacks through school, and they are managing to fail even though these systems have been created. This isnt a fault of the education system, its a fault of the parents who dont exist.
I liked your post until I got to the point. Small percentage? I think thats an incorrect statement. Also, what about the self-loving, race-card playing, racist bigots that are everywhere? The education system is trying its best to get blacks through school, and they are managing to fail even though these systems have been created. This isnt a fault of the education system, its a fault of the parents who dont exist.
Hey guys, stay on topic!
This thread isn't about arguing or debating another poster's points.
It is about what YOUR grievances are with YOUR party.
Views coming from the left spectrum that I dislike:
-Anti-GMO, anti-vaccine, holistic, anti-science types
-Pro-union
-"White guilt", or whatever. There are different shades of this, but I once had an argument with a group of people from the same small college that it was less wrong for black people to be racist against white people. Ughhhhh.
-People who get all pro-gay with their kids, like the Swedes who mandate gender-neutral advertising to children. It seems very patronizing or something to go out of your way to tell your kid that being gay or doing girly/tomboyish things is okay.
I should have mentioned something that, by all rights, should have been number one on my list: How dead Iraqis and dead American soldiers suddenly stopped mattering as much once Obama was elected. How Obama is allowed to do things in his foreign policy that if Dubya or another Republican tried, would bring ceaseless outcries from the left. Where have you people been all along?
Great thread, and it's great to see all the reasoned, rational responses.
My biggest gripe with any group is that all but the most basic issues have more than one "point". While there are a number of issues where there is an obvious right vs wrong, there are a great many more where there are shades of grey. A great many people are unwilling to make the effort to look at the other side and consider more than one point of view. Our political parties, and our current political climate in this country only makes that worse.
I'm moderate-right on many issues, but believe in choice with regard to abortion. But look at the extremes within that topic. Those on the extreme side of the Christian (or at least "right to life") right believe that not just abortion is wrong, but actually oppose even contraceptive methods. Even something as "basic" as the morning after pills that effect what is little more than a fertilized egg, are demonized. On the opposite side, we have "pro-choice" people that won't consider bans on so-called partial birth abortion. In China, as part of their "one child" policy, they will take a woman that has come to term and is starting to deliver and inject a syringe full of formaldehyde in the head of a baby in the process of being born. I regard that as barbaric. I support "choice" regardless of reason, up to a certain point, perhaps "viability" if that can be defined. A woman should be able to decide if she will deal with the "inconvenience" of a pregnancy and child, far before the "partial birth" stage. I support abortion up to late stages of pregnancy should there be a diagnosis of some form of birth defect or mental/genetic abnormality. I support those that are willing to raise (for example) a Down's child, but don't think society has a right to force that on anyone.
With regard to religion, I call myself an atheistically leaning agnostic. I don't believe that there is any sort of greater power, and regard organized religion as rather, well...silly. However, I am willing to accept that there are things that we can't explain by science, at least at this time, and concede that there might be some sort of power at work that we don't understand. I just don't believe that such a power, if it exists, demands the blind following of it's creations. Flip side, I'm embarrassed by many atheists. Many go out of their way to disrespect people of faith, to antagonize them and to attack them simply for being believers. To spin an old phrase, some of my best friends are Christians. While I may not agree with their beliefs, I do respect them. I also accept that religion can be a civilizing force for promoting "good" ...while also regarding unquestioning, blind faith as very dangerous.
Lets talk environmental issues. No reasonable person supports unrestricted destruction of the environment, nor wants to turn our air quality into say Beijing's, nor take us back to the 1930s levels in this country. Yet at the same time, thinking people can see that there is a balance. For example, we have reduced emissions from automobiles some 98% or more since the early 1960s. This is very commendable progress, and something we want to reward. But like most things...balance. Trying to address that remaining 1-2% gets increasingly expensive for very little gain in terms of air quality or health. There is such a thing as diminishing returns, and in a good number of cases we're there, or have passed that point in our regulations.
The same is true on nearly all issues. We have become so polarized and divided that in many cases it seems as if there is no one willing to look for a middle ground.
I agree with this. Gary Johnson stepped far enough back from the demand for immediate dismantling of the safety net to get my vote in '12. And Ron Paul usually stresses that military spending is the big budget-buster that needs to go. But some of the more doctrinaire libertarians are harder (or impossible) to support (as well as the very disturbed Islamophobe faction.)
Well, that's one area I agree with Ron Paul: the immediate withdraw of all American troops around the world right now. No phasing, no timetables, right now.
Very interesting thread. I share a lot of the concerns already mentioned about some other fellow liberals, and would add:
* A tendency to want to oppress conservative free speech. Some liberals define "diversity" in very narrow terms. I also hate how some liberals don't appreciate that there are good, honest people are simply conservative by nature, or who have come to their opinions after a lot of reflection.
My cousin attended U of Michigan Law School in the nineties. Noted feminist Catharine MacKinnon was a professor in the school and she screened students prior to being enrolled in the class to make sure they had the "correct" beliefs. Can you believe that? If you can't defend your ideas and you must preclude any opposition, you shouldn't be making any pronouncements yourself.
Somewhere along the line, this idea started that we are entitled not to be offended. If there is one place in which free speech should flourish and all opinions, even offensive ones, should be aired, it's on college campuses. I think things have gotten better since the nineties.
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* A tendency to excuse the behavior of political allies in the name of "solidarity", or to pretend that just aping p.c. political slogans makes a person a decent human being.
I once got to see a well-known black activist speak, and even found myself (like the rest of the white liberals there) playing the sycophant to a guy who was basically an egotistical blowhard. I've known many liberals and radicals who love proclaiming how progressive they are, but who are really awful --- hypocritical, power-hungry, mean-spirited --- in their personal lives.
This reminds me of a story my father told me about some colleagues. It seems there was a female colleague from India, she was a Hindu, who had a particularly overbearing personality. Anytime someone took issue with something she did, she would contend that the person was motivated by racism. My father had yet to meet her but was told about how she had everyone in fear for being on the receiving end of her accusations. As someone told my father, "Brian, you don't understand. You see that red dot in the middle of her forehead and you get mesmerized." Well, she finally tried this on the wrong person. She was at some meeting with my father's boss. You must understand, the boss, who I'll call "Ron," along with my father, worked for in an agency that services poor and homeless folks in a major city. They dealt with minority populations everyday. You don't get into the business if you are a racist. On top of that, "Ron" was someone who at one time had been an addict, cleaned up his life, gone to college and eventually gotten his master's. In addition to being a big guy, "Ron" was, let's say, "high-strung" with a commanding personality. Anyways, at this meeting, "Ron" took issue with something the lady from India had said. She immediately accused "Ron" of being prejudiced against her. My father was across the room and he then heard in a booming voice, "Don't you ever accuse me of being a racist!" while he was right in her face. The woman was stunned. No one had ever stood up to her before. If I remember correctly, it was an "emperor has no clothes" moment that forever changed the dynamics in the woman's interactions with everyone else.
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