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Old 08-01-2013, 09:54 AM
 
6,137 posts, read 4,845,429 times
Reputation: 1516

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
I actually understand it perfectly, but rather than address *the issue itself* you want to shift blame and insult.
It is well deserved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
Black on black crime has been referenced here WELL before the Trayvon/Zimmerman incident, so trying to tie it to that case is disingenuous.
First of all, Bill O'Reilly's comments were very much a response to said incident, and this is what this thread is about.

Second, the issue of black on black crime is brought up outside of this case because crime (which would include intra-racial crime) is a far more substantial problem among blacks than it is among whites. That's a fact.

Couple that with constant mention of racism while black on black crime does immeasurably more harm to blacks as a whole and I see a refusal to address internal issues and a desire to externalize problems. So yes, it gets brought up. As it should.

Bill O'Reilly Blames Civil Rights Leaders And 'Black Culture' For Crime | ThinkProgress

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
IMO, black-on-black crime has NOTHING to do with the killing of an unarmed teen. It suggests that blacks don't care about black-on-black crime and I have yet to meet a black person who doesn't care and who isn't frustrated about the violence among the degenerates of our race.
I never said it did.

And while blacks in general may care about black on black crime, the hype over the Trayvon case among both blacks and leftists has surpassed every rally against black on black crime combined in probably a couple of decades.

The hypocrisy is staggering, and if you can't see it, you are truly blind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
There was heavy media coverage on the Christian and Newsom murders (an absolutely devastating crime). That was a black on white crime. In that case, I didn't see a lot of people asking why Christian and Newsom were so special when whites murder each other at such high rates. Instead, the talk was about how blacks are violently inclined and this is just another example. Do you not see the hypocrisy?
I was too young to care about politics when that happened, so I really don't know, but from what I understand, it got very little coverage, relatively. Conservatives always use this case to point out media bias.

I can see the hypocrisy if what you are saying is in fact how it was reported.

But like I said, I don't know, I read one article about that case, on some guy's blog, years after it happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
No, that's not the bottom line. The bottom line is: It's stupid to criticize a race of people for the actions of the degenerates within that race. It's stupid to suggest that black people need to "fix" our community. It's stupid to pull out stats on black-on-black crime while completely ignoring that a similar problem exists in the white community.
A similar problem exists in the white community to a much much smaller degree. I see your point, but it is quite simply not nearly as much of a problem among whites.

What you take as criticism of your race, I take as criticism of an elements of your race. "Black culture" is a euphemism. It doesn't literally mean every black person. It's a shame that the term has been coined as such, but I don't take it literally. Maybe everyone else does, I don't know.

And as I said, I can't speak for Bill O'Reilly, but I'd have very little if anything to say on the subject did I feel that it was being approached honestly, without mountains of obfuscation and blame shifting.

There is a disproportionate crime problem among blacks - take that as you will. My problem is more how it is addressed than that it exists at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
It's stupid to have the mindset that black people are the only race of people suffering from lack of education, crime, poverty, out of wedlock marriage, etc.
Find me one person who has ever said this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
The problem isnt with white people, it is with morons, that is what went over your head. there are morons in all demographics.
Yes, but different types of moronic behavior correlate with age / race / gender / etc and I have no issue pointing this out as it may very well be a pertinent fact in any discussion.

These things don't happen in a vacuum. There are social and cultural implications.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:11 AM
 
Location: NC
6,032 posts, read 9,175,082 times
Reputation: 6378
I guess 71% rate for birthing out of wedlock children is a good thing for the fabric of a culture or group
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Metro DC area
4,520 posts, read 4,194,760 times
Reputation: 1289
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
It is well deserved.

First of all, Bill O'Reilly's comments were very much a response to said incident, and this is what this thread is about.

Second, the issue of black on black crime is brought up outside of this case because crime (which would include intra-racial crime) is a far more substantial problem among blacks than it is among whites. That's a fact.

Couple that with constant mention of racism while black on black crime does immeasurably more harm to blacks as a whole and I see a refusal to address internal issues and a desire to externalize problems. So yes, it gets brought up. As it should.

Bill O'Reilly Blames Civil Rights Leaders And 'Black Culture' For Crime | ThinkProgress
It doesn't matter if it is at a higher rate. What difference does that make? So because blacks do it more, the whites killed don't matter? Why are we COMPARING instead of working on the problem itself? IMO, white on white crime is JUST AS damaging and detrimental to the white community as black on black crime is to the black community. To give it less importance can only be for one of two reasons:

-you value black life more than white life
-you want to suggest that crime is somehow special/unique to black people
-IMO, citing black-on-black violence in response to claims of racism is a faulty argument. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
I never said it did.

And while blacks in general may care about black on black crime, the hype over the Trayvon case among both blacks and leftists has surpassed every rally against black on black crime combined in probably a couple of decades.

The hypocrisy is staggering, and if you can't see it, you are truly blind.
The case received more "hype" because it was covered nationally. And it received more hype because of the unusual nature and circumstances of the crime. If you can't see that *you* are the one blind.

Some cases get hyped more than others. Elisabeth Smart comes to mind..her case got national attention. Why her when so many other children go missing in America? Does that mean no one cares about those other missing children? Why is everything so one-track with so many of you? Do you not realize it's possible to care about BOTH at the same time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
I was too young to care about politics when that happened, so I really don't know, but from what I understand, it got very little coverage, relatively. Conservatives always use this case to point out media bias.

I can see the hypocrisy if what you are saying is in fact how it was reported.

But like I said, I don't know, I read one article about that case, on some guy's blog, years after it happened.
The murders occurred in 2007; not really that long ago. If you were too young to care about it and/or know about the case, then you are young indeed and I can see why we are having a "failure to communicate".

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
A similar problem exists in the white community to a much much smaller degree. I see your point, but it is quite simply not nearly as much of a problem among whites.

What you take as criticism of your race, I take as criticism of an elements of your race. "Black culture" is a euphemism. It doesn't literally mean every black person. It's a shame that the term has been coined as such, but I don't take it literally. Maybe everyone else does, I don't know.

And as I said, I can't speak for Bill O'Reilly, but I'd have very little if anything to say on the subject did I feel that it was being approached honestly, without mountains of obfuscation and blame shifting.

There is a disproportionate crime problem among blacks - take that as you will. My problem is more how it is addressed than that it exists at all.
Again, it doesn't matter if it occurs more. It still occurs. So rather than examining ONLY the black race to figure out why we're so screwed up, how about looking at the commonalities that exists between blacks who commit crimes and whites who commit crimes? Focus on THAT because anyone genuinely interested in knowing why black-on-black crime is such a problem need look no further than the drug trade and the violence that surrounds it.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Baltimore
1,022 posts, read 2,538,827 times
Reputation: 1176
The Trayvon incident influenced peoples' desire to have this so-called "conversation about race", yet the conversation has been predominantly about what blacks need to do to fix their communities. I'm all for addressing issues within the black community, but I don't see where it fits into the conversation about race relations in America. Discussing issues in the white community also does not relate to the so-called "race discussion". I thought Chris Hayes' satirical piece did well to show how idiotic, unrelated, and one-sided the media's "conversation about race" has been.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Metro DC area
4,520 posts, read 4,194,760 times
Reputation: 1289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor Griff View Post
The Trayvon incident influenced peoples' desire to have this so-called "conversation about race", yet the conversation has been predominantly about what blacks need to do to fix their communities. I'm all for addressing issues within the black community, but I don't see where it fits into the conversation about race relations in America. Discussing issues in the white community also does not relate to the so-called "race discussion". I thought Chris Hayes' satirical piece did well to show how idiotic, unrelated, and one-sided the media's "conversation about race" has been.
I agree.

I've come to learn that "conversations about race" always are about present conditions with staunch refusal to discuss *past* conditions that might have influenced the way things are today.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:18 AM
 
3,393 posts, read 3,997,859 times
Reputation: 9310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Opinionated View Post
Because the ongoing implication by micro-minded racists like O'Reilly is that violence is a genetic black trait only. But when it is evident that whites can also behave in socially malicious ways, it is not bad. Just unfortunate.
Ok, I actually watch O'Reilly and this is definitely not the case. He has NEVER said this a genetic black trait. Talk about malicious! He outlined several issues in black CULTURE that he feels contribute to issues in the black community.

The problem is that there are so many black people that don't want to hear that. They want to operate on the assumption that any rich white man that expresses any criticism of the black community does it out of racism.

Is it really impossible for you to believe that 1) I'm white 2) I think there are serious problems in the black community and 3) I'm not racist and actually ROOTING for your success?

Why do you think the Cosby Show was so wildly popular with white people back in the 80s? Because so many of us wanted to see a successful black family. We saw it as encouragement to other black people.

And I know, I know, many of you will say there is no such thing as a black "community". You are upper-middle class and for me to lump all blacks together is insulting. But you have to admit, there is a serious problem with inner-city black culture. Yes, there are white problems. We could go on about southern white poverty and white meth use, but the black prison population represents a very disturbing trend.

Why can't we all talk about this?
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:35 AM
 
6,137 posts, read 4,845,429 times
Reputation: 1516
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
It doesn't matter if it is at a higher rate. What difference does that make? So because blacks do it more, the whites killed don't matter? Why are we COMPARING instead of working on the problem itself? IMO, white on white crime is JUST AS damaging and detrimental to the white community as black on black crime is to the black community.
You are just... wrong. White on white crime is not as damaging to whites as a whole because it's not as common.

If there are two groups of people, and one has higher occurrences of a problem, it is a more notable problem within that group. I don't see how this is arguable.

Black on black crime does more harm to blacks than white on white crime does to whites. Because it happens a hell of a lot more. This is statistical fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
To give it less importance can only be for one of two reasons:

-you value black life more than white life
-you want to suggest that crime is somehow special/unique to black people
No and no. I never suggested anything was unique to black people, just that it was a larger problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
-IMO, citing black-on-black violence in response to claims of racism is a faulty argument. The two have nothing to do with each other.
You've missed my point entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
The case received more "hype" because it was covered nationally. And it received more hype because of the unusual nature and circumstances of the crime. If you can't see that *you* are the one blind.
But the black guy shooting the mentally retarded hispanic guy, 3 weeks later, from inside of his car, and not being arrested for it, got no coverage. Are those circumstances "normal" to you?

The TM case got coverage for one reason and one reason only - let's call it the racism industry.

Were Trayvon Martin white, nobody would know about the case. Do you dispute this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
Some cases get hyped more than others. Elisabeth Smart comes to mind..her case got national attention. Why her when so many other children go missing in America? Does that mean no one cares about those other missing children? Why is everything so one-track with so many of you? Do you not realize it's possible to care about BOTH at the same time?
In the Elizabeth Smart case, there were no designated "victim" and "oppressor" groups portrayed in the popular narrative. There was no political agenda behind it. Apples and oranges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
The murders occurred in 2007; not really that long ago. If you were too young to care about it and/or know about the case, then you are young indeed and I can see why we are having a "failure to communicate".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
Again, it doesn't matter if it occurs more. It still occurs.
Yes, it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
So rather than examining ONLY the black race to figure out why we're so screwed up, how about looking at the commonalities that exists between blacks who commit crimes and whites who commit crimes?
Actually, I do.

But any and all correlations are relevant here as they often present useful data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
Focus on THAT because anyone genuinely interested in knowing why black-on-black crime is such a problem need look no further than the drug trade and the violence that surrounds it.
I often see this repeated, but I don't see any numbers. The problem goes much farther than drugs. IMO.

Drug Related Crime

And even then, the drug/crime problem is a manifestation of larger issues. If we legalized drugs tomorrow, do you think those drug dealers would all go straight and get 9-5 jobs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
I agree.

I've come to learn that "conversations about race" always are about present conditions with staunch refusal to discuss *past* conditions that might have influenced the way things are today.
Not really.

There's a difference between a root cause and an impediment to progress.

When you use the past to justify continued and unnecessary failings, we tune out. You can feed that to the lefties.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Book Lover 21 View Post
Ok, I actually watch O'Reilly and this is definitely not the case. He has NEVER said this a genetic black trait. Talk about malicious! He outlined several issues in black CULTURE that he feels contribute to issues in the black community.
Case in point.

How the hell are we expected to have an honest and rational discussion when have of what comes back is crap in our faces? Flat out lies and distortions.

I'll say it again - I'll shut my mouth when I feel that the issue is not being actively minimized and the debate obfuscated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor Griff View Post
The Trayvon incident influenced peoples' desire to have this so-called "conversation about race", yet the conversation has been predominantly about what blacks need to do to fix their communities. I'm all for addressing issues within the black community, but I don't see where it fits into the conversation about race relations in America. Discussing issues in the white community also does not relate to the so-called "race discussion". I thought Chris Hayes' satirical piece did well to show how idiotic, unrelated, and one-sided the media's "conversation about race" has been.
This is utter nonsense.

90% of the discussion on this case has been about racial profiling, SYG and self defense law, and George Zimmerman being the spawn of satan.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Metro DC area
4,520 posts, read 4,194,760 times
Reputation: 1289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Book Lover 21 View Post
Ok, I actually watch O'Reilly and this is definitely not the case. He has NEVER said this a genetic black trait. Talk about malicious! He outlined several issues in black CULTURE that he feels contribute to issues in the black community.

The problem is that there are so many black people that don't want to hear that. They want to operate on the assumption that any rich white man that expresses any criticism of the black community does it out of racism.

Is it really impossible for you to believe that 1) I'm white 2) I think there are serious problems in the black community and 3) I'm not racist and actually ROOTING for your success?

Why do you think the Cosby Show was so wildly popular with white people back in the 80s? Because so many of us wanted to see a successful black family. We saw it as encouragement to other black people.

And I know, I know, many of you will say there is no such thing as a black "community". You are upper-middle class and for me to lump all blacks together is insulting. But you have to admit, there is a serious problem with inner-city black culture. Yes, there are white problems. We could go on about southern white poverty and white meth use, but the black prison population represents a very disturbing trend.

Why can't we all talk about this?
OK...let me ask you this...

Does crime exist in the white community?
Does white-on-white crime exist in the white community?
Are more whites killed by other whites than they are by blacks?

If so, why isn't O'Reilly concerned? Why, after the Aurora/Sandy Hook shootings didn't he investigate the problems of crime in the white community? Why the one-sided interested in black crime? Is it really concern or is it something else?
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:46 AM
 
7,359 posts, read 5,442,798 times
Reputation: 3141
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChocLot View Post
I greatly enjoyed the clip. I *wish* most people really understood what the goal was, but I'm not surprised if it goes in one ear and out the other. People who hold racist viewpoints are usually of limited intellectual abilities, so anything beyond 9th grade critical thinking skills, falls on deaf ears.

Thanks for posting.
And people who equate pointing out problems in a community with being racist towards that community also lack critical thinking skills.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:47 AM
 
20,395 posts, read 12,295,051 times
Reputation: 10168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gtownoe View Post
You must be talking about yourself!


It's his job to bring awareness. That's his role. Everybody has different roles.


Are you protesting? Running for office? Drafting new policy??
awareness? Hayes is not bringing awareness. He is ridiculing people trying to have a serious discussion about a serious topic.

he is doing NOTHING AT ALL to "bring awareness". unless by "bring awareness" you mean making sure we dont actually have a conversation to a real issue.
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