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There are Conservative Libertarians (Ron Paul, Ayn Rand, John Stossel) and there are Libertarian Socialists (Bill Maher, Noam Chomsky, Abbie Hoffman).
Obviously these folks weren't/aren't completely rigid in their philosophies but generally speaking this is a good place to start.
Conservative Libertarians believe in personal freedom through what they see as legitimate institutions (banks, churches, even the current government if policies are adjusted correctly).
Libertarian Socialists believe in personal freedom but don't recognize the legitimacy of current institutions to work thru to achieve this freedom.
In a broad, broad, broad nutshell.
Just for the record (I didn't read all the posts in this thread, so this might have already been mentioned), the original definition of libertarianism (before it was adopted by the American "Libertarian Party") was synonymous with what is deemed libertarian socialism today. The term didn't become associated with capitalism until it was adopted by David Nolan in the early 70's. It was really the first time Americans were exposed to the term and therefore, they associate it with capitalism. The term existed in European politics long before Americans even heard of it.
Libertarianism really is only synonymous with capitalism in America and England. In other European nations, referring to yourself as a libertarian would mean you are an anti-statist and an anti-capitalist. In other words, you want self-governing communities with a system of "cooperative economics" and collective/community ownership of means of production (stateless socialism). Calling yourself a "libertarian socialist is" redundant outside of the US or UK.
With that said, I care more about the political views of people than how they self-identify. The term "libertarian" has been so overused now that it's almost meaningless. Bill Maher in my eyes doesn't fit the definition of libertarian socialist (he is very pro-state in many cases) but on the other hand, neither Glenn Beck nor Sarah Palin fit the definition of libertarian capitalist (they identify as such despite their neocon leanings).
Thanks & respect RogersParkGuy, I enjoyed that, I appreciate Mr. Chomsky's take on most subjects, including this one. Here's an excerpt from his Class Warfare, 1995, pp. 19-23, 27-31
Quote:
NOAM CHOMSKY: I didn't do any research at all on Smith. I just read him. There's no research. Just read it. He's pre-capitalist, a figure of the Enlightenment. What we would call capitalism he despised. People read snippets of Adam Smith, the few phrases they teach in school. Everybody reads the first paragraph of The Wealth of Nations where he talks about how wonderful the division of labor is. But not many people get to the point hundreds of pages later, where he says that division of labor will destroy human beings and turn people into creatures as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human being to be. And therefore in any civilized society the government is going to have to take some measures to prevent division of labor from proceeding to its limits.
He did give an argument for markets, but the argument was that under conditions of perfect liberty, markets will lead to perfect equality. That's the argument for them, because he thought that equality of condition (not just opportunity) is what you should be aiming at. It goes on and on. He gave a devastating critique of what we would call North-South policies. He was talking about England and India. He bitterly condemned the British experiments they were carrying out which were devastating India.
He also made remarks which ought to be truisms about the way states work. ...
I've read some of Adam Smith, some of Noam Chomsky, enjoy Bill Maher's political humor, & have read some of the American style, post-capitalist Libertarian works.
Personally, I prefer Mr's Smith, Chomsky & Maher's thoughtviews to the Libertarians' mostly because of 3 very broad reasons:
They're reality-based.
They come from a solution-providing or problem-solving perspective.
Just for the record (I didn't read all the posts in this thread, so this might have already been mentioned), the original definition of libertarianism (before it was adopted by the American "Libertarian Party") was synonymous with what is deemed libertarian socialism today. The term didn't become associated with capitalism until it was adopted by David Nolan in the early 70's. It was really the first time Americans were exposed to the term and therefore, they associate it with capitalism. The term existed in European politics long before Americans even heard of it.
Libertarianism really is only synonymous with capitalism in America and England. In other European nations, referring to yourself as a libertarian would mean you are an anti-statist and an anti-capitalist. In other words, you want self-governing communities with a system of "cooperative economics" and collective/community ownership of means of production (stateless socialism). Calling yourself a "libertarian socialist is" redundant outside of the US or UK.
With that said, I care more about the political views of people than how they self-identify. The term "libertarian" has been so overused now that it's almost meaningless. Bill Maher in my eyes doesn't fit the definition of libertarian socialist (he is very pro-state in many cases) but on the other hand, neither Glenn Beck nor Sarah Palin fit the definition of libertarian capitalist (they identify as such despite their neocon leanings).
Excellent analysis Haaziq, I appreciate, thanks & respect.
I agree with much of what you've said here. It also dovetails nicely with what Mr. Chomsky et al consider to be present day challenges.
that my political affiliation even closely resembles that of Maher. Why doesn't he just come out and admit he's a liberal?
While there is a political philosophy called left libertarianism, it bears almost no resemblance to the "regular" libertarianism that is commonly known. It's essentially statism without a state, where the state's functions are taken over by a common community. Hippie communes in the 60s are sort of the ideal society of left libertarianism. Bill Maher is not a left libertarian.
Bill Maher is absolutely a liberal who just co-opts the libertarian label. There are a few regulars on this forum who do the same thing. I think he just does it for his career. It lets him give the appearance of standing apart from the common political sides, even though his actions betray him as a garden variety liberal. It gives him a ready defense against charges of being a leftist partisan.
Nobody can donate a million dollars to the Obama campaign and then claim to be any sort of libertarian, left right or upside down. While it's true that not all libertarians are the same, Obama is way way too much of a statist to be supported by any libertarian I've ever heard of.
Liberalism is a philosophy supported by euphemisms and defended through name-calling.
Personally, I think the same or similar can be said about most -isms. Look around the Internet, perhaps even right here on these forums (new here so I dunno although, there are other political forums where I've observed such) to catch a few examples.
that my political affiliation even closely resembles that of Maher. Why doesn't he just come out and admit he's a liberal?
I'm pretty sure ALL Libertarians know each other.
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