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Old 12-13-2007, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,284,822 times
Reputation: 15285

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artliquide View Post
I see you point, but I guess that we have different perspectives about whether the Christmas holiday is primarily religious or primarily secular. My perspective may be influenced by the fact that I've always been surrounded by devout Christians growing up, so a religious celebration of Christmas is my primary influence regarding the holiday. Perhaps you have differing experiences.
You're right -- I have had different experiences. My family was not religously devout when I was growing up, but my parents taught me to respect other peoples' beliefs. I had many friends whose families were devout (I grew up on the east coast in a heavily Catholic area), and I observed their celebrations first-hand.

In addition, I am of the generation which had Bible-reading and prayer in the public schools, so I was exposed to Christian texts (though not indoctrinated by them) at an early age. I don't think I suffered any ill effects from the experience, and as I have posted in other threads, I came to revere the Jacobean translation of the Bible, which led me to Shakespeare, which gave me a career field to follow (tertiary liberal arts education).

Christmas, to me, is so diverse a holiday that I have a problem understanding why other people don't see it that way: why they don't simply enjoy the parts that they are comfortable with and ignore the rest -- or at least allow others their own perspective, be it Christian, pagan, or (as in my case) messily eclectic.

Some posters in this thread seem to think that Christmas is a threat to us in its very complexity, or in the grosser aspects of the commercialism which threatens to choke it, or in this or that image or symbol or religious metaphor of the holiday. I prefer to see it as one tenaciously surviving example of the diverse ways in which humankind marks the seasons, the history of our shared culture, the relationship of us to each other as brothers and sisters, and a way to express the hope that at the approaching death of the year, there may yet be a way to find peace and understanding.

To put it simply, I love the holiday because it encourages me to be optimistic, for a change, in spite of myself. And I am reassured in my suspicion that I am not alone.

 
Old 12-13-2007, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Gilbert, AZ
788 posts, read 2,107,822 times
Reputation: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
You're right -- I have had different experiences. My family was not religously devout when I was growing up, but my parents taught me to respect other peoples' beliefs. I had many friends whose families were devout (I grew up on the east coast in a heavily Catholic area), and I observed their celebrations first-hand.

In addition, I am of the generation which had Bible-reading and prayer in the public schools, so I was exposed to Christian texts (though not indoctrinated by them) at an early age. I don't think I suffered any ill effects from the experience, and as I have posted in other threads, I came to revere the Jacobean translation of the Bible, which led me to Shakespeare, which gave me a career field to follow (tertiary liberal arts education).

Christmas, to me, is so diverse a holiday that I have a problem understanding why other people don't see it that way: why they don't simply enjoy the parts that they are comfortable with and ignore the rest -- or at least allow others their own perspective, be it Christian, pagan, or (as in my case) messily eclectic.

Some posters in this thread seem to think that Christmas is a threat to us in its very complexity, or in the grosser aspects of the commercialism which threatens to choke it, or in this or that image or symbol or religious metaphor of the holiday. I prefer to see it as one tenaciously surviving example of the diverse ways in which humankind marks the seasons, the history of our shared culture, the relationship of us to each other as brothers and sisters, and a way to express the hope that at the approaching death of the year, there may yet be a way to find peace and understanding.

To put it simply, I love the holiday because it encourages me to be optimistic, for a change, in spite of myself. And I am reassured in my suspicion that I am not alone.
That's great for you

The only thing I'm arguing in here (other than a couple of grumbles about the craziness of the holiday season, though it's not the end of the world for me or anything) is the opposition to the phrase "happy holidays", or calling parties around this time "holiday" parties. Because I don't understand why some people are so threatened by the use of that term, rather than the word "Christmas", which I interpret to be religious, in schools, and in businesses who choose to use "holiday" to be welcoming to potential customers, I argue: "why not"? What is the threat, exactly? Why does using "holiday" mean that Christmas is fading? Obviously, it isn't. Saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is simply meant to include non-Christians, or rather, those of other faiths in general, in the holiday season, and I see that as a joyful, compassionate expression of diversity. But I'm labeled a "Christmas hater" because I like the idea of using a neutral term in locations where many people of many backgrounds will be. I also favor allowing businesses to conduct their business as they choose without being harassed by those who think they're trying to extinguish Christmas.

And in the end, it's just a word, which does go both ways. If someone wishes me a "Merry Christmas", I say it back, but some people might not appreciate being told "merry Christmas", which doesn't matter on a personal level, but in certain locations, I think it's better to try not to exclude anyone.
 
Old 12-13-2007, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,284,822 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artliquide View Post
That's great for you

The only thing I'm arguing in here (other than a couple of grumbles about the craziness of the holiday season, though it's not the end of the world for me or anything) is the opposition to the phrase "happy holidays", or calling parties around this time "holiday" parties. Because I don't understand why some people are so threatened by the use of that term, rather than the word "Christmas", which I interpret to be religious, in schools, and in businesses who choose to use "holiday" to be welcoming to potential customers, I argue: "why not"? What is the threat, exactly? Why does using "holiday" mean that Christmas is fading? Obviously, it isn't. Saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is simply meant to include non-Christians, or rather, those of other faiths in general, in the holiday season, and I see that as a joyful, compassionate expression of diversity. But I'm labeled a "Christmas hater" because I like the idea of using a neutral term in locations where many people of many backgrounds will be. I also favor allowing businesses to conduct their business as they choose without being harassed by those who think they're trying to extinguish Christmas.

And in the end, it's just a word, which does go both ways. If someone wishes me a "Merry Christmas", I say it back, but some people might not appreciate being told "merry Christmas", which doesn't matter on a personal level, but in certain locations, I think it's better to try not to exclude anyone.
Sounds good. Merry Christmas and Happy Holdays to you!
 
Old 12-13-2007, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
3,589 posts, read 4,133,688 times
Reputation: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
Ah, it's called, Having fun? You know - laughing. Socialization. Relaxing

All of the above actually help kids (and adults) learn you know
Isn't that what recess is for?
 
Old 12-13-2007, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Dallas, Texas
3,589 posts, read 4,133,688 times
Reputation: 533
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
No stereotypist, I. Not Jewish.

Just literal-minded and kinda grumpy.

I dated a Jewish boy in high school. He grew up to be a chef.
 
Old 12-13-2007, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,197,274 times
Reputation: 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeDallasite View Post
Isn't that what recess is for?
There is a stark difference between 15 minutes, and going between classes, and having a party

No, that is not what recesses are for IMO
 
Old 12-13-2007, 07:36 PM
 
Location: volusia county
5 posts, read 8,912 times
Reputation: 12
Hi, I'm Muslim, but I'm also American, and I love all of my Holidays. Merry Christmas to you all and a Wonderful New Year. Don't focus so much on those who choose not to say Merry Christmas, just make sure you do. We can't make others respect differences but we can do our part. If it makes anyone uncomfortable then it is their problem not yours. once again, I say " Merry Christmas " don't waste one moment of this wonderful time of year worrying about what is or is not politically correct.
 
Old 12-13-2007, 08:49 PM
 
Location: In the Redwoods
30,286 posts, read 51,833,691 times
Reputation: 23660
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
I like your attitude, gizmo.

Hope your family had a nice Channuka.
Thanks! And yes, I suppose I had a nice Chanukah... didn't consist of anything really, aside from one night at the public menorah lighting, followed by dinner at Outback. And that was more of a birthday celebration, since it was my mom's 59th that day. We haven't even exchanged gifts, but my mom's taking me shopping next week for some new clothing. Good enough for me! Hope you all have a nice holiday, whatever it might be...
 
Old 12-13-2007, 09:00 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,169,690 times
Reputation: 3696
Ok, I am officially declaring the war on Christmas over. Now everyone be merry and rejoice.
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