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Perhaps you are reading this backwards. Perhaps he saved Noah and his family from a flood that naturally happened. You have to remember that "history" as recorded in the bible is not history as we would record it. Stories were preserved for their meaning not their historical value back then. The bible records not the event itself but the meaning of the event. The bible would seek to put some religious significance on a great flood. That is not the same as God having a temper tantrum and drowning kittens. It could be the other way around. God warned Noah of a flood that was coming and Noah preached that people needed to heed God's warning and build arks and no one listened. God is under no obligation to save us from the natural consequences of our own choices and, unfortunately, our children suffer for our choices. That is a reality of life on earth.
Stories of a great flood are pervasive in mythology of hundreds of cultures so I think it's a safe assumption one happened. Was it really worldwide? Or just so devastating it seemed to be? One has to remember that you cannot take the bible literally the way you would a history text today (and even a history text today may contain inaccuracies) because it's not a history book. The story was not written to preserve a detailed account of the event. It was preserved to show the meaning of the event.
If God were to reveal to me that there was going to be an earthquake in a city of magnitude 11 and I preached that people needed to flee and they did not heed the warning, would it be correct to say that God threw a temper tantrum and crushed children and kittens? Or would it be correct to say that man ignored God's warning and suffered the consequences of his own choice? Like it or not, in this life, there are consequences for our choices. Why do you feel God is obligated to negate them for us?
I used to smoke. I quit when I was 31 when my father developed lung cancer (actually I quit because I wanted to have kids and didn't want to wait until I was pregnant but it was about the time my father was diagnosed). Does God now owe it to me to negate the damage I did to my lungs? Does he owe it to me that I not get lung cancer? If I do get lung cancer it will be because it runs in my family and I smoked for 14 years not because God threw a temper tantrum and punished me. Do not mistake natural consequences for God throwing a temper tantrum. We really don't know the details of what happened. We can say there most likely was a flood because stories of a flood are found in hundreds of cultures. What the bible records attempts to place meaning on why there was a flood and why this one family was saved from that flood. Perhaps it was just a natural occurrence and God warned Noah because he was faithful and others refused to listen to Noah. Perhaps God would have stopped the flood if people had turned. We will never know.
Do you seriously believe what you just wrote?
Is the god you believe in all-powerful and all-knowing? Or not?
If so, then there ARE no 'choices' or 'freewill' for humans as your God already knows everything that will happen, and already knew everything humans would do before he 'created' them. If your god is all-knowing and all powerful, then 'he' is no better than a narcissistic psychopath torturing and drowning kittens for his own amusement.
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Is the god you believe in all-powerful and all-knowing? Or not?
If so, then there ARE no 'choices' or 'freewill' for humans as your God already knows everything that will happen. If your god is all-knowing and all powerful, then 'he' is no better than a narcissistic psychopath torturing and drowning kittens for his own amusement.
Yes, and Both. Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean he doesn't let things play out as they will.
He didn't torture and drown kittens. Most likely a natural event did that. What he did was warn people who didn't listen. You're looking at this backwards. Animals and people die in natural occurrences every day. A kitten dying in the flood is no different than a deer being eaten by cougar. Just because it's on a bigger scale doesn't change what it is. Death is part of life. We will all die. Preventing one form of death just means you die from something else. So, without reason, there's no reason to prevent one over another. You have to keep in mind that this life isn't about this life. It's about the afterlife. My mom didn't die at 44 because God wanted her to. She died at 44 because she had a birth defect that was a time bomb and there was no reason for God to stop it from going off. Whatever she needed to do was done.
While living on this earth, we are subject to the rules of this earth. If you live in tornado alley and you don't have a tornado shelter or don't go into it when the siren goes off, is it God's fault if you get killed? If lung cancer runs in your family and you smoke anyway, is it God's fault you got cancer? Sure God knows you'll get cancer but you've also been warned and chose to ignore the warning or perhaps you were just born with the wrong genes and you're just very likely to get cancer. God doesn't control things like this.
Yes, God knows what the outcome will be but he lets it play out so that WE know that the outcome that happened was the one we chose. This life isn't for God. It's for us. It's so we know that whatever happens to us in eternity happened because of our choices. While I don't believe in predestination, I do believe God already knows what you and I will choose but we are the ones choosing it. It was not chosen for us.
Don't mistake God knowing what will happen with predisposition. He's not making it happen. He's not deciding for us. He just knows what we're going to do.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-31-2013 at 08:54 AM..
Yes, and Both. Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean he doesn't let things play out as they will.
He didn't torture and drown kittens. Most likely a natural event did that. What he did was warn people who didn't listen. You're looking at this backwards.
While living on this earth, we are subject to the rules of this earth. If you live in tornado alley and you don't have a tornado shelter or don't go into it when the siren goes off, is it God's fault if you get killed? If lung cancer runs in your family and you smoke anyway, is it God's fault you got cancer? Sure God knows you'll get cancer but you've also been warned and chose to ignore the warning.
Yes, God knows what the outcome will be but he lets it play out so that WE know that the outcome that happened was the one we chose. This life isn't for God. It's for us. It's so we know that whatever happens to us in eternity happened because of our choices. While I don't believe in predestination, I do believe God already knows what you and I will choose but we are the ones choosing it. It was not chosen for us.
You really don't get it do you. If your god knows everything that will ever happen before he even created everything and is in control of everything, then still let's his plan 'play out', he's a psychopath using humans as his playthings.
Or are you saying that your god doesn't know everything and is not all powerful? You really can't have it both ways.
In my opinion, religious beliefs in a parental deity figure numb the brain's capacity for critical thinking - perhaps that's why it's so 'comforting' for some people.
By the way, I wasn't being literal about the 'kittens'.
You really don't get it do you. If your god knows everything that will ever happen before he even created everything and is in control of everything, then still let's his plan 'play out', he's a psychopath using humans as his playthings.
Or are you saying that your god doesn't know everything and is not all powerful? You really can't have it both ways.
In my opinion, religious beliefs in a parental deity figure numb the brain's capacity for critical thinking - perhaps that's why it's so 'comforting' for some people.
By the way, I wasn't being literal about the 'kittens'.
No, I get it. You don't. God lets it play out because WE need to know what choices we made. We would not accept it if God just told us what we'd do. When we stand before God, we'll KNOW what we did.
You're entitled to your opinion but I'm just as entitled to mine. I find that religion requires a lot of critical thinking. I never was one who could just believe because the bible says so. I kind of envy people who can do that. Life seems so much simpler for them but we all end up in the same place. Me, I have to find logical reasons to believe. I have my days when I struggle because of it but I usually end up where I need to be.
I find my belief in God in science. I choose Christianity because I believe there is good reason to (A really good book to read is The Case for Christ. It's written by a forensic writer who set out to prove to his newly Christian wife that she was wrong but ended up convincing himself not with the bible but with the historical evidence, and logic.).
Yes, and Both. Just because God is all knowing doesn't mean he doesn't let things play out as they will.
He didn't torture and drown kittens. Most likely a natural event did that. What he did was warn people who didn't listen. You're looking at this backwards. Animals and people die in natural occurrences every day. A kitten dying in the flood is no different than a deer being eaten by cougar. Just because it's on a bigger scale doesn't change what it is. Death is part of life. We will all die. Preventing one form of death just means you die from something else. So, without reason, there's no reason to prevent one over another. You have to keep in mind that this life isn't about this life. It's about the afterlife. My mom didn't die at 44 because God wanted her to. She died at 44 because she had a birth defect that was a time bomb and there was no reason for God to stop it from going off. Whatever she needed to do was done.
While living on this earth, we are subject to the rules of this earth. If you live in tornado alley and you don't have a tornado shelter or don't go into it when the siren goes off, is it God's fault if you get killed? If lung cancer runs in your family and you smoke anyway, is it God's fault you got cancer? Sure God knows you'll get cancer but you've also been warned and chose to ignore the warning or perhaps you were just born with the wrong genes and you're just very likely to get cancer. God doesn't control things like this.
Yes, God knows what the outcome will be but he lets it play out so that WE know that the outcome that happened was the one we chose. This life isn't for God. It's for us. It's so we know that whatever happens to us in eternity happened because of our choices. While I don't believe in predestination, I do believe God already knows what you and I will choose but we are the ones choosing it. It was not chosen for us.
Don't mistake God knowing what will happen with predisposition. He's not making it happen. He's not deciding for us. He just knows what we're going to do.
And what makes you think that your god is everyones god? Rather egocentric. There is no proof of a god and global catastrophies can be proven by evidence of comets or asteroids hitting the earth causing major flooding. Everything in the bible was written by men, mostly by males and those in charge, it is a book of tales and is good for that, but not for teaching to everyone in the public school system. Want your kids to believe in intelligent design, then do your brainwashing at home and you can also teach them that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth and it all sits on the back of a giant tortoise.
No, I get it. You don't. God lets it play out because WE need to know what choices we made. We would not accept it if God just told us what we'd do. When we stand before God, we'll KNOW what we did.
You're entitled to your opinion but I'm just as entitled to mine. I find that religion requires a lot of critical thinking. I never was one who could just believe because the bible says so. I kind of envy people who can do that. Life seems so much simpler for them but we all end up in the same place. Me, I have to find logical reasons to believe. I have my days when I struggle because of it but I usually end up where I need to be.
I find my belief in God in science. I choose Christianity because I believe there is good reason to (A really good book to read is The Case for Christ. It's written by a forensic writer who set out to prove to his newly Christian wife that she was wrong but ended up convincing himself not with the bible but with the historical evidence, and logic.).
*sigh* religious beliefs require cognitive distortions and wishful thinking, not critical thinking- as you have just demonstrated.
Here's just one of many examples that just don't work with the 'humans have free will and will answer for their choices' meme:
What 'choices' were made by a small child who was repeatedly raped and beaten for years? What excuse is your god going to give to that child when they 'stand before him'?
I find my belief in God in science. I choose Christianity because I believe there is good reason to (A really good book to read is The Case for Christ. It's written by a forensic writer who set out to prove to his newly Christian wife that she was wrong but ended up convincing himself not with the bible but with the historical evidence, and logic.).
You think Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ is "A really good book" based on "Historical evidence and logic"? Surely you jest.
I've read Lee Strobel's Case for Christ, as well as Josh McDowell's Evidence which Demands a Refund... (sorry, I mean 'Verdict') and several other Apologist books like them. It's embarrassingly easy to expose the complete lack of critical thinking in them as well as the intellectual dishonesty and often outright lies. Here's a post I wrote over a year ago showing a blatant lie by McDowell as just one example. //www.city-data.com/forum/relig...l#post23717270
I think Strobel made the same false claim if I remember correctly. Their books are chock full of false claims and statements from faith, not logic or historical evidence.
These types of evangelical Apologist books use a lot circular citations and quote mines of other evangelical apologists to make them look all 'scholarly-like', when they aren't. Anyone who takes their claims at face value and not checked their claims for veracity, has not engaged in critical thinking.
We still haven't seen any ID'ers explain UN-intelligent design.
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