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gary kleck has reported the same thing, thru repeated surveys, and it's been backed up by others. And frankly, I don't care. try to take my guns, and I will do my very best to make it cost you EVERYTHING. Now what? You wanna see a civil war? Let's HAVE it.
you don't understand the realities of prisons. There are so many offenders (if you don't legalize dope) that you CAN'T give all of them life, (those with appropriate offenses-sentences) and MEAN it. You'd have to double your taxes. When the inmates have no parole date or good time to lose, they cost 3-4x as much to control. If the punks in the street know that they are facing REAL life in prison, more of them will kill cops. So that increases your costs, too, tremendously. If you want all offenders to have year long, multi million $ trials (why would they NOT, since there would be no plea) 90% of them would be released without a trial, due to the Constitutional speedy trial requirement of 4 months from accusation to trial.
What is with such negative connotations? The Constitution and Bill Of Rights and laws protect and promote the spread and defense of life, liberty, and property, we do so with firearms..This "arms race" you think is happening is law abiding Americans rediscovering their heritage, and rekindling the bond fire that is liberty bathing in the light and warmth of freedom and driving back cold darkness of tyranny back into the night..
If you cant understand this, I take pity on you.
You "expectation" of a police force and a "peaceful society" what happens what it falls apart? or is use to abuse and murder people it sees as threats? as so is the case in many nations over many eras of history? like the people of Syria? did you think that some of those people who have been shot by their own nations soldiers and police officers think at one point we live in a"peaceful society and have a just and lawful police force" how is that working out for them?
"Thus we continue to trust it won't happen to us. And usually that is the way it is." how did that mentality work out for the victim? And what if it does happen? just sit there and be murdered?
Also trust? You are tell me their is no element of any society that abuse trust of one group of people?
Arms are just one means, many Americans don't have guns, your "we" is just one group of society. Other people protect their freedoms via courts, petitions, and other non-violent ways.
All that talking about freedom only makes me giggle. Most Americans are so not free, you just don't notice it because your freedoms have long been reduced in subtle, gradual ways. Some Americans think that just because they may have guns and say everything they want, they are free. Those are fake freedoms you are granted because government wants people to FEEL free so they won't start any revolution. At the end of the day I prefer my freedoms over here, like freedom from worries about health care, freedom from excessive competition and the things that come with it such as backstabbing, the Joneses mentality, too little spare time/vacation, freedom from secret services and other police state conditions, etc. Those are the freedoms that really matter to me in my daily life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunlover
before the commit a crime they are not real criminals. if men refuse to obey an unjust and unconstitutional law he is not a criminal, he is patriot.
And yes we are fine with our Constitution, we value liberty and freedom more then safety...
That is your view, but not that of the law. If you refuse to obey WHAT YOU THINK IS an unjust and unconstitutional law, then you might be in for a surprise once you find yourself in court. Some people have found paying taxes unjust and unconstitutional and thus stopped doing so, and they ended up in jail. The courts just did not share their view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunlover
you value the life of criminals more the the victims.
No, I have no problem letting hardcore criminals rot in jail till the end of their days. Your accusation sounds childish and desperate, frankly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunlover
no you dont, if you did you would understand that those who want/like be armed just for sake of it are part the same groups..
It is cool, and we do have a right to do it, why cant you understand this?
They are different groups, although of course there is some overlapping. But there are lots of Americans that have guns although they hate guns and would never go hunting or anything like that. Still, if they live in some dangerous inner city, they might feel they simply need a gun to defend themselves.
Those people have nothing to do with people like you whatsoever. Again, your "we" is an illusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunlover
no, their are certain things no person will put up with living in a society, being disarmed and enslaved is one of them if not the highest.
No you guys are not as individualistic as us..its legal to buy mushrooms but you cant buy an AR15 with a 150 round drum mag, You can sell your bodies, but you cant carry a glock for every day CCW.
I am pro legitimization of drugs and prostitution, but I am also pro 2nd Amendment, you can claim you support individualistic freedom of "social freedoms" but deny natural laws or natural rights based on emotions.
Living in American society, you mean. Being unarmed and enslaved are totally different things. Americans are armed, yet enslaved to their predator economic system.
Again, really odd if you tie individualism to having a gun or not. That is outright absurd in my view. The things that make an individual an individual have nothing to do with guns. Nobody keeps me from being as individualistic as I want, except if the symptoms of my individualism endanger someone else's rights. In that case laws step in, and it is exactly the same in the US and every Western country. You have no rights and possibilities that you only have because you have guns, and that I don't have because I don't have guns.
Natural laws? How can the right to have firearms be natural when there are no firearms in nature? They are the product of culture, an invention, thus not natural. If you hit someone over the head with a rock, that is natural
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunlover
What if he is were goggles? or is high on meth or PCP?? what if it has gone bad? what if the spray is blown by the wind into here eyes? none of their problems happen with a firearm..
Sure, there are accidents, but accidents also happen with guns.
Perfect security and safety do not exist because there is nothing perfect in the universe. Accidents just like crimes do happen and they always will...
All that talking about freedom only makes me giggle. Most Americans are so not free, you just don't notice it because your freedoms have long been reduced in subtle, gradual ways. Some Americans think that just because they may have guns and say everything they want, they are free. Those are fake freedoms you are granted because government wants people to FEEL free so they won't start any revolution. At the end of the day I prefer my freedoms over here, like freedom from worries about health care, freedom from excessive competition and the things that come with it such as backstabbing, the Joneses mentality, too little spare time/vacation, freedom from secret services and other police state conditions, etc. Those are the freedoms that really matter to me in my daily life.
I agree 100% that the erosion of freedom has been gradual to a point that many did not and still do not notice. True liberty is freedom from coercion. There should be no government incentive to buy a house or start a family or buy a Chevy Volt. Equal protection under the law should be just that. I shouldn't have to pay 35% federal tax when a family across town pays nothing. There should be no race check box on any form. I could go on for hours.
A lot of people woke up (or were slapped in the face) with these revelations when the 2008 presidential election cycle was in the news. I had never paid that much attention to each and every freedom that had quietly disappeared. Many will say that the anger is towards a black President. He happens to be black and was elected at the wrong time. I am one of many that think his policies are removing even more freedoms. Staying on topic - Administration announces new gun control measures, targets military surplus imports | Fox News
You say you don't worry about your freedom. That's what put us in this state. Everyone needs to worry about it or it will be gone without you ever seeing it coming.
On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with competition. It put a man on the moon among other things. I do have the freedom to work as hard as I want to move up the corporate ladder. I choose not to. I have a good job that pays well. I could do more to move into management but I see what my manager does every day and night and I don't want the hassle. I would take away from my family time. Recently losing a few family members makes you re-evaluate things.
Arms are just one means, many Americans don't have guns, your "we" is just one group of society. Other people protect their freedoms via courts, petitions, and other non-violent ways.
All that talking about freedom only makes me giggle. Most Americans are so not free, you just don't notice it because your freedoms have long been reduced in subtle, gradual ways. Some Americans think that just because they may have guns and say everything they want, they are free. Those are fake freedoms you are granted because government wants people to FEEL free so they won't start any revolution. At the end of the day I prefer my freedoms over here, like freedom from worries about health care, freedom from excessive competition and the things that come with it such as backstabbing, the Joneses mentality, too little spare time/vacation, freedom from secret services and other police state conditions, etc. Those are the freedoms that really matter to me in my daily life.
What about the freedom to defend those freedoms?
What if the courts are corrupt
That is your view, but not that of the law. If you refuse to obey WHAT YOU THINK IS an unjust and unconstitutional law, then you might be in for a surprise once you find yourself in court. Some people have found paying taxes unjust and unconstitutional and thus stopped doing so, and they ended up in jail. The courts just did not share their view.
So if a Court is unjust and violates the supreme laws of the lands is that court still worthy of being followed and having its ruling obeyed?
No, I have no problem letting hardcore criminals rot in jail till the end of their days. Your accusation sounds childish and desperate, frankly.
Why let them rot? why not give victims to ability to defend themselves on the spot using deadly force if need be?
They are different groups, although of course there is some overlapping. But there are lots of Americans that have guns although they hate guns and would never go hunting or anything like that. Still, if they live in some dangerous inner city, they might feel they simply need a gun to defend themselves.
Those people have nothing to do with people like you whatsoever. Again, your "we" is an illusion.
We (IE memebers of the Gun Culture) share a great deal of views, opinions, and ideals
"we" is an illusion of your ideologue of appeasement.
Living in American society, you mean. Being unarmed and enslaved are totally different things. Americans are armed, yet enslaved to their predator economic system.
Hey we are not as free as we wish we could be, more the masses are awaking
Again, really odd if you tie individualism to having a gun or not. That is outright absurd in my view. The things that make an individual an individual have nothing to do with guns. Nobody keeps me from being as individualistic as I want, except if the symptoms of my individualism endanger someone else's rights. In that case laws step in, and it is exactly the same in the US and every Western country. You have no rights and possibilities that you only have because you have guns, and that I don't have because I don't have guns.
If you cant understand that being armed, and own firearms allows you to protect and defend your individualism
Natural laws? How can the right to have firearms be natural when there are no firearms in nature? They are the product of culture, an invention, thus not natural. If you hit someone over the head with a rock, that is natural
How do we square this respect for some laws with contempt for others? We do it because there are, in reality, two antithetical ideas of what law is. On one hand is author Richard Maybury called Political Law – law made by kings or shahs or congressmen… laws made by people. On the other hand, we conservatives, and many old-school liberals, of course, believe in something alternately called Natural Law.
Political law is simply the law as written by individuals: it varies with the whims of the individuals that wrote it, it is arbitrary, it is constantly changing and it is therefore unpredictable. People with political power write political law.
Natural law is very different. Natural law is not written, it is revealed. By that I mean Natural Law is inherent in nature and individuals, and revealing natural law simply means writing down in words what already exists.
Now, the United States of America is the first, and as far as I know, the only country in the history of the world to be founded on Natural Law.
The Declaration of Independence was an appeal to the world; an appeal to overthrow the corrupt political law of King George and invoke a higher law -- natural law – as justification for this action.
Probably the most definitive sentence ever written on Natural Law – certainly the most famous sentence – is this one:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
What a sentence. Everything you need to know about the exceptionalism of America is right there in that one, profoundly simple sentence.
First, we hold these truths… not these opinions, not these agreements, not this consensus, not this vote – these TRUTHS – Fundamental realities that any person in any culture can reason out for himself.
… to be self-evident… We didn’t write them, we didn’t create them, we don’t allow them or grant them permission… they are self-evident because they were here before we were.
… that all men are created equal – Obviously not equally rich, or equally smart, or equally tall, or equally fast, but equal under the law, which applies to the rich and powerful as well as to the poor and friendless.
…that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights-
For people who believe in God, this is self-explanatory; but even people who do not believe in God need to believe in this: that each human has, as his birthright, certain rights that cannot be taken away -- and that these rights are bestowed upon us – not by people, not by governments, but by a force far greater than people or government. You could call it history, call it human evolution, call it justice, but whatever it is, it is beyond the reach of mortal men and women.
…that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. –
Notice that these rights are not commodities, like wide screen TV’s or even food or rent or health care – because if you had a legal right to these things, someone would be legally bound to provide them for you – whether they wanted to or not.
Notice also how the Bill of Rights takes a natural law approach to our liberties. It doesn’t grant us freedoms; it protects freedoms that are given to us at birth.
I have the Right to keep and bear firearms of my choice because I have that right.
That is my right because of the ability to, not because someone would be god king gave me the privilege to.
Sure, there are accidents, but accidents also happen with guns.
Perfect security and safety do not exist because there is nothing perfect in the universe. Accidents just like crimes do happen and they always will...
So perfect security does not exist, but still give up your only means of self preservation and defense.
Fine with me, I just don't think one can and should defend freedoms with guns.
Of course some courts come up with verdicts that might turn out to be false. That risk is always there wherever a decision is made. Now, if courts show systematic weaknesses, I guess they will be recognized and corrected in a civilized manner.
Supreme laws of the lands?! What is that? If laws contradict the constitution anyone can take that to the supreme court. But unless they share your view, you will have to abide by the laws even if you find them wrong or unfair.
I don't have a problem with self defense, but yes, with deadly force. With some, though not all, people having guns it is not just about self-defense, but there is also that retaliation thingy involved, the wish to also play judge and executioner.
That may be, but a lot of Americans, both those with and without guns, are not part of that gun culture. Just because someone eats at a vegetarian restaurant occasionally, doesn't mean they are vegetarian
I have never needed guns to protect my individualism.
I don't believe in natural law. What is that supposed to be? The law of the jungle? I am happy human society does not work like that in most countries, frankly.
I don't believe there is any difference between what you consider laws given by your creator and laws made by men. Except for the laws of physics and other scientific stuff, all laws are made by humans. After all, being an atheist, in my view humans have invented gods and religions to begin with, thus those "god-given" laws are just an indirect reflection of the human mind. The god-given aspect is just suppposed to make them seem superior somehow, when in reality all they are is older and simpler.
When someone is scared of criminals, for instance because they live in a rough neighborhood, I understand why they feel like they need arms (not just guns) to protect themselves in the US. But I do distinguish them from those people who simply like guns and want to be armed just for the sake of it, for instance because they think that it is cool or simply because they have the right to.
Or perhaps simply because we enjoy the challenge of sport shooting. I've been doing it since about age nine. I guess it could be truthfully said that I like guns, especially as I own several, both long guns and pistols and revolvers. Do I think having them is "cool?" Never thought of it that way. Still don't. Do I own them simply because I have the right to? Not at all but I'm glad we do. Would I use one to protect myself and my wife in the event someone forced entry into our home? If I had to, you bet! We're rural and law enforcement response can be 20 minutes or more.
Not all of us gun owners fall into your personal categories. You might want to broaden your views, especially as you're not in Europe anymore, Toto.
Fine with me, I just don't think one can and should defend freedoms with guns.
What happens when the law and civilized means fail? Send a harshly worded letter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
Of course some courts come up with verdicts that might turn out to be false. That risk is always there wherever a decision is made. Now, if courts show systematic weaknesses, I guess they will be recognized and corrected in a civilized manner.
That has been going on in the US for decades and nothing is changing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
Supreme laws of the lands?! What is that? If laws contradict the constitution anyone can take that to the supreme court. But unless they share your view, you will have to abide by the laws even if you find them wrong or unfair.
What if the Supreme Court rules against the Constitution? Like on every federal drug law or Japanese internment during WWII.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
I don't have a problem with self defense, but yes, with deadly force. With some, though not all, people having guns it is not just about self-defense, but there is also that retaliation thingy involved, the wish to also play judge and executioner.
Until a person commits the crime, they are innocent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
That may be, but a lot of Americans, both those with and without guns, are not part of that gun culture. Just because someone eats at a vegetarian restaurant occasionally, doesn't mean they are vegetarian
But the anti-vegetarians aren't trying to convert the meat eaters. Anti-gunners are trying to ban guns. What happened to the live and let live?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
I have never needed guns to protect my individualism.
That is small minded. I don't understand NASCAR but I don't try to get it banned. I don't understand these wilderness reenactors but I'm happy for Mac Muz that he can get dressed up on animal skins and shoot muzzle loaders. I want diversity in things like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling
I don't believe in natural law. What is that supposed to be? The law of the jungle? I am happy human society does not work like that in most countries, frankly.
I don't believe there is any difference between what you consider laws given by your creator and laws made by men. Except for the laws of physics and other scientific stuff, all laws are made by humans. After all, being an atheist, in my view humans have invented gods and religions to begin with, thus those "god-given" laws are just an indirect reflection of the human mind. The god-given aspect is just suppposed to make them seem superior somehow, when in reality all they are is older and simpler.
Or perhaps simply because we enjoy the challenge of sport shooting. I've been doing it since about age nine. I guess it could be truthfully said that I like guns, especially as I own several, both long guns and pistols and revolvers. Do I think having them is "cool?" Never thought of it that way. Still don't. Do I own them simply because I have the right to? Not at all but I'm glad we do. Would I use one to protect myself and my wife in the event someone forced entry into our home? If I had to, you bet! We're rural and law enforcement response can be 20 minutes or more.
Not all of us gun owners fall into your personal categories. You might want to broaden your views, especially as you're not in Europe anymore, Toto.
You confirm my categories, either you like guns or you dislike them (which doesn't rule out having one if it is considered necessary). You obviously like them...
What happens when the law and civilized means fail? Send a harshly worded letter?
That has been going on in the US for decades and nothing is changing.
What if the Supreme Court rules against the Constitution? Like on every federal drug law or Japanese internment during WWII.
Until a person commits the crime, they are innocent.
But the anti-vegetarians aren't trying to convert the meat eaters. Anti-gunners are trying to ban guns. What happened to the live and let live?
That is small minded. I don't understand NASCAR but I don't try to get it banned. I don't understand these wilderness reenactors but I'm happy for Mac Muz that he can get dressed up on animal skins and shoot muzzle loaders. I want diversity in things like this.
If nothing changes, obviously your system is not as good as you claim.
The difference being that with vegetarians and meat eaters one's preference does not have any impact on the other, unlike with guns in society, which everyone can become a victim of.
It is not small-minded. I can be as individualist as I wish as long as my individualism doesn't get in the way of someone else's individualism. And if that happens, laws and ultimately courts decide and limit my individualism, and rightly so I might add. I personally never had any problems with such limits because I use common sense, which keeps me way below the permitted maximum level of individualism. My individualims only makes sense as long as I am an accepted part of society, on which I utterly depend.
You video seems to be where gunlover took his quote from. I have already replied to that and I have to stick with what I said.
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