Questions for people who support gay marriage (violent crime, billion, percentage)

[Fuselage]

Originally Posted by Lunar Delta

I can't prop you right now, so I will reply with my agreement instead.

I too feel sadness when I think of people like our friend Romani here. I also feel angry; angry that what could have been a perfectly kind and decent human was exposed to environments and beliefs that caused them to become... twisted. They simply are not functioning correctly. They have been warped psychologically and can no longer properly think for themselves, be objective, or make rational decisions. The worst part is many of these religions discourage questioning and introspection, causing already susceptible victims to lose the ability to examine their beliefs and eventually their own motivations.

Eventually it works its way into their minds and integrates so completely that it stops being belief and becomes an assumed fact-of-reality.

Well, there is a reason why those who are overwhelmed with their fervor sometimes find themselves at the wrong place at the wrong time. To me, this is simply a psychological dysfunction - akin to delusions of grandeur. For crying out loud, look at this guy: He's been chosen by god while others have not. That ought to tell you something. Sure, it falls short of the "I AM god" stance, but this pretty well delusional.

Sad indeed.

[bUU]

Originally Posted by Fuselage

Perhaps you don't feel sad - but I do. To me, that person is so consumed by their negative ideology that they cannot possibly live a happy life.

Okay. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I've met a lot of these people, over the years. Family, co-workers, people I meet through church, etc. From where I've been sitting, their self-deception doesn't seem to hinder their happiness, but generally helps inure them against detriments to happiness that stem from the realities they deny.

Originally Posted by Fuselage

What I do know is that his stance is not an adaptive one - if one's goal is the blanket condemnation of an entire demographic (i.e., the discrimination of that group), one cannot possibly be a well-balanced human being.

Hmmm... okay I can see a little bit of this: Surely such people are wholly unprepared, and experience significant depression, if their bubble is every truly burst and they come to see the reality.

[JohnnyMack]

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

What utter nonsense!
So, the reason I'm an atheist is because God didn't choose me?

Where does that put those like me that consider themselves "Christian" but don't follow the bigoted views of some posting in this thread .. Oh wait, I have been told in other threads I can't be a Christian.
They like to pick and choose which things "the Bible says" were and still are still evil and which no longer apply. I wonder how many have killed their children for misbehaving or refusing to follow THEIR religion, the "mixed fabrics" thing gets them too.

Oh Sabbath is SATURDAY.

[bUU]

Originally Posted by JohnnyMack

They like to pick and choose which things "the Bible says" were and still are still evil and which no longer apply.

The capriciousness of dogmatic Christianity is indeed its greatest internal fault, since if a new testament could override (arbitrarily selected parts of) an old testament, that ratifies continual evolution of spiritual maturity, superseding their new testament as readily as it superseded (arbitrarily selected parts of) the old testament. Given that the Old Testament was superseded after just about 700 years, the New Testament is rightfully superseded almost three times over.

[weltschmerz]

Originally Posted by Fuselage

Party at my fire pit tonight. Bring the booze and the pitch forks and let the fornication begin.

Fruck, I wasn't chosen, either. Stupid god - I could have been hanging out with the likes of Jesse Helms tonight. Ah, what good times those would have been.

I WAS chosen by Ganesh, the multi-limbed Elephant God. He came unto me in the dead of night and poked me with his trunk.
In retrospect, maybe that wasn't his trunk.....

[0marvin0]

Originally Posted by Fuselage

Party at my fire pit tonight. Bring the booze and the pitch forks and let the fornication begin.

Fruck, I wasn't chosen, either. Stupid god - I could have been hanging out with the likes of Jesse Helms tonight. Ah, what good times those would have been.

Don't worry. Jesse and his ilk are just two pits over and a couple of levels down.

[0marvin0]

Originally Posted by Lunar Delta

I can't prop you right now, so I will reply with my agreement instead.

I too feel sadness when I think of people like our friend Romani here. I also feel angry; angry that what could have been a perfectly kind and decent human was exposed to environments and beliefs that caused them to become... twisted. They simply are not functioning correctly. They have been warped psychologically and can no longer properly think for themselves, be objective, or make rational decisions. The worst part is many of these religions discourage questioning and introspection, causing already susceptible victims to lose the ability to examine their beliefs and eventually their own motivations.

Eventually it works its way into their minds and integrates so completely that it stops being belief and becomes an assumed fact-of-reality.

Your second paragraph contains a very good definition of a cult.

[RomaniGypsy]

Originally Posted by Griffis

If I recall correctly, this has already been addressed several times in this thread and you were made to look like a purple-veined, drooling mass of wrongness. But keep tilting at those windmills...

That being the operative phrase, my adjective-loving friend.

Originally Posted by TheDragonslayer

You are so brainwashed by your bible that you think your god and your bible is fact, when it is not. Your bible does not give you the green light to discriminate against who ever you choose. One is not born with a religion, one is not born believing in a god. But one is born with their sexual orientation, it is not taught, it is not learned. Freedom of religion does not give one the right to discriminate and doing so is just hiding behind a black curtain of hate. Your religion does not rule all people and thus should not be used to influence laws affecting all people. What ever happened to judge not lest yea be judged, or do unto others as one would want done unto oneself.

"Judge not, lest you be judged" - don't judge others in a way in which you would not want to be judged, as you will be judged in the same way. I don't. I fully expect to be judged on my own scale because I do my best to align my scale with that of the Bible. Do unto others as one would want done unto oneself - I treat people with respect (notice how I haven't attacked you or anyone else here who has attacked me with terms such as "brainwashed", "bigoted", "hateful", etc) and I call people out when they're sinning - assuming I know them even a little bit - just as I would hope people would call me out (and give me chapter and verse to back their assertions) when I'm sinning. There's more, but this is all that's relevant to what you've been saying.

Originally Posted by hammertime33

Are you ****ing kidding? Sexuality is a choice, but religion is inborn? That's the most absurd thing I have every heard in my entire life.

I never said religion was inborn. I said that we don't always choose God - God chooses us. Even the liberal Hollywood machine made a movie not long ago called "Evan Almighty" wherein this topic was discussed.

Originally Posted by Fuselage

It's futile. This person is so far steeped in his/her ideology that they can no longer distinguish right from wrong, left from right, up from down, fair from unfair, rational from irrational.

Oh, but you can, is that it? I have stated that the Bible is my unchangeable absolute standard. What's yours?

Originally Posted by Fuselage

All others are clearly excluded from such virtues.

All others who would deride the Word of God, yes.

Originally Posted by Fuselage

The ironic thing is that this person thinks they are Christian and that one way to show it to the world (which, in itself is not Christian) is to exhibit some of the least Christian behaviors like despise thy neighbor and elevating himself above others.

I despise nobody. I've had homosexual friends. I can't recall the last person I knew, personally, for whom I developed honest-to-goodness hatred. I was probably a teenager at the time. As for people I don't know... how can anyone hate someone he doesn't know? I don't even hate Barack Obama, and that should really tell you something in light of how many conservatives out there will fulminate until they're blue in the mouth about how they hate Obama and wish all kinds of horror upon him.

Originally Posted by Fuselage

It's amazing but quite common amongst those with this particular delusional pathology.

Don't argue. Feel sad that this person has become so incredibly lost and blind to the world around them.

This, students, is the true meaning of "the pot calling the pot a pot".

Originally Posted by weltschmerz

What utter nonsense!
So, the reason I'm an atheist is because God didn't choose me?

That could be one reason. But have you been raising your chances of being chosen by God, by seeking Him?

The good news for you is that you still have a chance. Saul was the worst enemy of Christianity that existed, when God called Him through Jesus Christ and he became Paul, one of the greatest of all apostles.

And if you think it's nonsense, I hope, for your sake, that you don't believe in hell... and that being sent to hell, as defined in the Bible, would not bother you. I also hope that you will grow to become more pleasant in your online postings. Tsk tsk tsk, such hostility.

Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun

Not really, because that isn't anyone's argument. You made all that stuff up. I can't imagine where you came up with the idea people were arguing in favour of mandatory observation of religious rituals.

I wasn't. I was saying that the owners of this bakery were mandated by law to oppose their religious beliefs... and I was suggesting similar scenarios wherein others might be subjected to the same. For an atheist, the only similar situation would be if that person was mandated to follow some religion. Supporting a sin is sin to a Christian. As such, supporting a homosexual marriage by producing something that will be used in the ceremony is forbidden to a Christian. Yet, that didn't matter to the government gestapo who essentially said "do things our way regardless of your religion or you will lose your livelihood". Sounds very Middle-Eastern-country-ish to me.

Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun

Anyway, there's nothing in any Christian doctrine that mandates not doing business with gay people.

You, like so many others on this thread, have missed the point entirely. It wasn't about not serving gay people. It was about producing something that would support a flagrantly sinful action. If a homosexual comes to a grocery store to buy food, that's not obviously supporting any sinful action. The business owner or employee probably wouldn't even know that the person was homosexual. But to make a cake to celebrate the union of Adam and Steve, that's sinful to a Christian.

Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun

Having to obey the law does not go against religious beliefs. It might go against personal beliefs, and the personal believer might use his religion to justify his personal beliefs, but he is not being stopped from practicing his religion in any way.

Actually he is, by being made to support something his religion considers sinful, or suffer serious consequences. Again, are we in America or are we in Iran?

Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun

Has it occurred to you that most business owners don't know the sexual orientation of their customers one way or the other? I bet someone like you is having to take money from a gay person in exchange for goods and services right now. And they don't even know it. Man, those homosexuals with their agenda are devious, not even identifying themselves so others will know to discriminate against them. Insidious, I tells ya.

Are you using sarcasm to compensate for something?

For the most part, you are right about how many business owners transact business with homosexuals without knowing it. First of all, it's not like a homosexual is constantly sinning. Someone can prefer people of the same gender... and, for example, while eating, they're not sinning. While showering, sleeping, cutting the grass, etc., they're not sinning. Besides, even if a Christian does unknowingly provide something that will be used by someone to commit a sin, the fact that it was "unknowingly" exonerates the Christian. "Sin" is the condition of knowing right vs. wrong and choosing to do wrong.

Originally Posted by Fuselage

Indeed. I feel sad every time I hear of a person who has gotten so lost that all they can do is try to make other people's lives miserable - for no rational reason.

If I'm making your lives miserable, that's your problem. I'm perfectly happy, the last time I made someone's life miserable was........... I don't know.......... honestly, probably never. Maybe my ex-wife would argue that I made her life miserable at times, but THAT story certainly has two sides to it. For the most part, I enhance the lives of those around me. I am almost universally loved by those with whom I interact, and anyone who doesn't feel that way is probably a perpetrator of, or an agent of, something most red-blooded humans would find ridiculous, unreasonable, or stupid.

Originally Posted by Fuselage

Perhaps you don't feel sad - but I do. To me, that person is so consumed by their negative ideology that they cannot possibly live a happy life.

My life is probably happier than yours. Let's compare over private message, shall we? For starters, I'm married to the greatest woman in the world (who also happens to be stunningly beautiful). I'm making my living doing the one thing I want to do most, at least at this point in time. I don't have to say "yes sir" to anyone, I hardly ever have to kiss up to anyone (and even when I do, it's not that bad), I'm my own boss, and my wife works with me. We get to travel. We get to make people happy through our work. We are significant. If we died now, literally thousands of people would be saddened, despite how few would probably be able to make it to our funeral.

I don't think I've ever been happier. Can you say the same thing?

And really - what does my happiness, or lack thereof, have to do with gay marriage? Stick to the flight plan, dear Fuselage.

Originally Posted by Fuselage

I don't know if Romani chose this stance or if he was indoctrinated/brainwashed.

I chose it. And it's been evolving over the 14 years since I made that choice.

Originally Posted by Fuselage

What I do know is that his stance is not an adaptive one - if one's goal is the blanket condemnation of an entire demographic (i.e., the discrimination of that group), one cannot possibly be a well-balanced human being.

How misinformed you are, my airborne friend. I do not desire to condemn anyone. I would much prefer to redeem them, or at least assist in their redemption. But in so doing, I am not in any way required to condone their sinful behaviors nor sit silently as such continue.

Originally Posted by Fuselage

For that, I feel sad - not for the fact that he is not allowed to live out his despicable fantasies or the anguish he suffers because of it. Quite contrary - if you are so driven by irrational fear and/or hatred, you get what you have coming.

I suffer no anguish at all, actually. How little you know about me. If I ever suffer anguish, it's only the same as anyone else would ever suffer, when trying to make the best decision in a situation where, within the set of possible decisions, there is no clear winner. Beyond that, I'm good. But thanks for your concern.

The people who get what they have coming are, in fact, everyone. We all get what we have coming. God is the one who determines that. If you think the Bible is full of irrational hatred and fear, essentially you're putting yourself above God (if you even believe that God exists). Have you ever seen that bumper sticker that says "If you're living like there is no God, YOU'D BETTER BE RIGHT!"?

Originally Posted by Fuselage

Well, there is a reason why those who are overwhelmed with their fervor sometimes find themselves at the wrong place at the wrong time. To me, this is simply a psychological dysfunction - akin to delusions of grandeur. For crying out loud, look at this guy: He's been chosen by god while others have not. That ought to tell you something. Sure, it falls short of the "I AM god" stance, but this pretty well delusional.

Sad indeed.

Evidently, I have been chosen by God. For that, God has my eternal loyalty. However, God can use all of you. You're most likely to be chosen by God if you truly seek to serve Him, but you can be chosen anyway. I've seen that happen.

I have one question for all of you who think I'm some miserable miscreant who spends all of his days wallowing in the filth of self-destructive desires to discriminate and hate. First, the background. The books that comprise the Bible have been around for millennia. It was THE STANDARD OF THE WORLD for many centuries as it was the sacred text of the world's largest religion. (Still is, technically.) It was certainly the standard of America until around the 1950's, despite what you may say about the separation of church and state. Study American history and you will find, among many other Christian aspects of earlier America, Supreme Court justices stating for many decades that the Bible must be considered in all legislative processes, for its wisdom. Historically, American laws have minded the Bible at every step and were usually perfectly aligned with what the Bible says on whatever the topic was. (Notice how I said "usually". Don't bother trying to find one counterexample. "Usually" means "most of them".) Drive around these days, pretty much anywhere in America, and you see Christian churches EVERYWHERE. They outnumber churches for other religions many times over. Christianity is still the world's largest religion, claiming approximately 2 billion adherents (though the actual number can never be truly ascertained). History shows how Christianity has been deeply entrenched into various powerful world societies for a very long time. Countless billions of people throughout the centuries have believed the Bible to be true, and have followed Jesus Christ. I could keep going, but you get the picture.

Given ALL OF THIS.......

...how can you be SO SURE that it's all just a crock of horse dookey, and your modern "enlightened way" is, and therefore always was, the right way?

("Always was" because, of course, if the Bible is a crock now, it always was a crock.)

[Rlarson21]

How can something that's not chosen be a sin? My orientarion was not chosen. Also why would I be created a male with a homosexual orientarion with a sexual and romantic drive and it be wrong to use it? Not pursuing a relationship won't make me straight but only a lonely gay person. So did god make gay people and then make.being alive itself a sin just because he likes to torture people?

[weltschmerz]

First, the background. The books that comprise the Bible have been around for
millennia.

The books that comprise Hinduism have been around even longer. Is that how you judge the veracity of a religion? All religions cannot be right. They can, however, all be wrong.
And no, of course I don't believe in hell. As an atheist, why would I?