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Old 09-14-2013, 06:11 PM
 
Location: I live wherever I am.
1,935 posts, read 4,548,944 times
Reputation: 3308

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDragonslayer View Post
You have blind faith in something with no proof of. You are the one with the burden to show proof of a god you claim exists, yet cannot show any proof but to just say you have faith in its existance. Still does not show or prove the existance of your sky daddy.. One would think with all the technology and science we have that something like that would be simple. But one cannot prove the existance of something that does not exist.
Dude, it's very easy to tire of listening to your secular humanist blathering... as well as the secular humanist blathering of so many others on this thread. You will thump your tub about how God's existence cannot be scientifically proven, all the while conveniently ignoring the fact that God's existence also cannot be scientifically disproven. Assuming that there's no preponderance of scientific evidence on either side of that argument, we choose to believe in God while you choose to believe that God doesn't exist. You blast us for our beliefs, in flagrant disrespect of the fact that some people will have opinions that differ from yours... yet you request that respect from our side in spite of your refusal to give same.

The people who don't believe in God, as I found out from a previous thread, cannot explain how life began. They are okay with "not knowing". The funny thing is that what they say, whether directly or indirectly, is that they don't know how life began but it sure as heck wasn't created by God. Somehow they know THAT, even though they know naught else about it. I, personally, cannot accept that. It is a partial story. The "God story" makes a heck of a lot more sense. (And remember, it cannot be scientifically disproven!)

Faith is belief in things unseen. Proof denies faith. I don't like that any more than anyone else does, being a scientist myself, but it's true. Let's say you follow some sports team and before the big game is televised, you "have faith" that your team will win. You don't know they'll win, but you believe they will. Nothing has been proven - no matter how great their season was, there's no telling who will win. Most everyone thought Mike Tyson would whip Evander Holyfield in 1997. Most everyone thought the undefeated Patriots would win the Super Bowl against the Giants in 2008. Most everyone thought the Yankees would win the World Series against the Red Sox in 2004, especially after they went up 3 games to nothing. There was a lot of faith in there... yet there was obviously no proof in the outcome.

Now suppose that you were past-posted, and somehow you knew the actual outcome of the game before it was televised because there was some time-delay between when the game was played and when it was televised. You found out that your team won. Before the game, you say "My team is going to win!" Is that faith? No. Now you have proof.

So just stop. None of us are buying it anyway. There will always be the barking dog chorus on the other side of the fence, where when one starts to bark, they all bark. "The Bible is a book of myths". "You can't prove the existence of YOUR God". "You're nothing but a hateful intolerant bigoted racist homophobic ignorant jerk". Those who'd chime in with you on that chorus don't need to hear what you say because they already believe it. Those of us who believe in God are not going to listen to you anyway because first of all, you won't change our beliefs, and second of all, we stand to gain absolutely NOTHING by listening to you.

Let's think about this for a while. We live our lives by the Ten Commandments. Boiled down, they are: don't have warped priorities, don't blaspheme, don't worship idols, don't lie, don't steal, don't murder, don't disrespect your parents, don't envy, rest on one day every week, and don't have sex with anyone who is not your (heterosexual) spouse. By adhering to these commandments, including "Love your neighbor as yourself" (from the New Testament), NOBODY is going to do any wrong in this world, nor trample upon anyone else's "rights". There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with living as a Christian should live.

In contrast, switching from the Christian way to the morally relativistic way makes people run the risk of trampling on the rights of others. That's the only reason why conservatives despise the modern liberal agenda anyway. Its most nefarious aspect is trampling on the rights of others. You want to give government recognition to homosexual relationships? Whatever. God will judge that - none of us humans can. But DON'T MAKE THE REST OF US ACCEPT IT AS EQUAL TO HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE. Some will accept it - don't force us all to accept it... because in so doing you have trampled on our rights. You want your right to marry? Great. I retain the right to say that it is not the same. If the government treats it as the same, whatever. If I don't want to, that remains my right... and if I don't want to serve your "marriage" at my business because I find it sinful, I have the right to do so... at least in an ideal America. But our rights have gotten trampled by this agenda. Heaven knows, freedom of speech is a "right" in the Constitution. But now, see, to speak out against anything so codified as the modern homosexual agenda makes you guilty of "hate speech" even if you aren't advocating "hate" in any way. All you have to do is speak out against it and automatically you are a hateful, bigoted, black-hearted homophobe. That's my point. It has now abridged the rights of the rest of Americans. You want to stand up for the rights of everyone? Stand up equally strongly for my right to say things and do things that you don't want to hear or see... as long as, in so doing, I do not directly and materially harm you. If you won't stand up for that right, you're ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT from any conservative who essentially doesn't stand up for the rights of the liberal lot to do and say things that we don't like.

So just stop all of this garbage about moral relativism and whatever. NOBODY CARES. So the other barking dogs know that there's one more in their ranks. Big deal. Those of us on the other side of the fence DO NOT CARE. You won't recruit us, you won't change us. If anyone is being hateful, it's you. I, for one, have never called any such modern liberal a name, at least not outside of a private conversation with someone to whom I am close. (And the one time I tried using the same words they love to use, publicly, it became very clear that they don't like to swallow their own medicine!) It is the liberals who tar us conservatives with epithets. So if we're "homophobes" (afraid of gays), what are y'all - "Christophobes" (afraid of Christians)? The pernicious part of the names applied to us is that none of them are true. We don't hate homosexuals - we see them as sinners in need of redemption just as everyone is. We aren't intolerant of people who live a homosexual lifestyle - we're intolerant of homosexuality. Love the sinner, hate the sin. We aren't bigoted against homosexuals - we are opposed to the lifestyle and believe that it needs to change... but we know that it never will unless the people themselves are accepted as being equally human with us. On and on and on.

The hateful blather comes from your side, not mine. Reread my posts, and the posts of the few other conservatives on this thread. You won't find one hateful word in there. Now, reread YOUR posts, and see what comes up. You call God a "sky daddy". When was the last time any of us applied any such replacement name toward any of the homosexuals or supporters of such on this thread? (I think you know that there are many such names out there.)
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Deep Dirty South
5,190 posts, read 5,081,372 times
Reputation: 3860
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
We live our lives by the Ten Commandments. Boiled down, they are: don't have warped priorities, don't blaspheme, don't worship idols, don't lie, don't steal, don't murder, don't disrespect your parents, don't envy, rest on one day every week, and don't have sex with anyone who is not your (heterosexual) spouse...
Well, to be truthful, the Ten C's don't say "heterosexual." And polygamy was still common in most of the known world at that time.

Quote:
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with living as a Christian should live.
I agree until people begin endorsing systematic discrimination of and bigotry towards a certain group of people based on their religious notions.

Quote:
The hateful blather comes from your side, not mine.
BS. It comes from both sides. The very fact that you so often use your personal belief system to call out others as being sinful or devious is a terrible way to sit in judgment of people.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Lower east side of Toronto
10,568 posts, read 12,323,993 times
Reputation: 9389
extremism ---the re-definition of sex is just to far out there for me to take seriously.
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Old 09-15-2013, 12:01 AM
 
Location: McKinleyville, California
6,413 posts, read 10,130,140 times
Reputation: 4285
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
Dude, it's very easy to tire of listening to your secular humanist blathering... as well as the secular humanist blathering of so many others on this thread. You will thump your tub about how God's existence cannot be scientifically proven, all the while conveniently ignoring the fact that God's existence also cannot be scientifically disproven. Assuming that there's no preponderance of scientific evidence on either side of that argument, we choose to believe in God while you choose to believe that God doesn't exist. You blast us for our beliefs, in flagrant disrespect of the fact that some people will have opinions that differ from yours... yet you request that respect from our side in spite of your refusal to give same.

The people who don't believe in God, as I found out from a previous thread, cannot explain how life began. They are okay with "not knowing". The funny thing is that what they say, whether directly or indirectly, is that they don't know how life began but it sure as heck wasn't created by God. Somehow they know THAT, even though they know naught else about it. I, personally, cannot accept that. It is a partial story. The "God story" makes a heck of a lot more sense. (And remember, it cannot be scientifically disproven!)

Faith is belief in things unseen. Proof denies faith. I don't like that any more than anyone else does, being a scientist myself, but it's true. Let's say you follow some sports team and before the big game is televised, you "have faith" that your team will win. You don't know they'll win, but you believe they will. Nothing has been proven - no matter how great their season was, there's no telling who will win. Most everyone thought Mike Tyson would whip Evander Holyfield in 1997. Most everyone thought the undefeated Patriots would win the Super Bowl against the Giants in 2008. Most everyone thought the Yankees would win the World Series against the Red Sox in 2004, especially after they went up 3 games to nothing. There was a lot of faith in there... yet there was obviously no proof in the outcome.

Now suppose that you were past-posted, and somehow you knew the actual outcome of the game before it was televised because there was some time-delay between when the game was played and when it was televised. You found out that your team won. Before the game, you say "My team is going to win!" Is that faith? No. Now you have proof.

So just stop. None of us are buying it anyway. There will always be the barking dog chorus on the other side of the fence, where when one starts to bark, they all bark. "The Bible is a book of myths". "You can't prove the existence of YOUR God". "You're nothing but a hateful intolerant bigoted racist homophobic ignorant jerk". Those who'd chime in with you on that chorus don't need to hear what you say because they already believe it. Those of us who believe in God are not going to listen to you anyway because first of all, you won't change our beliefs, and second of all, we stand to gain absolutely NOTHING by listening to you.

Let's think about this for a while. We live our lives by the Ten Commandments. Boiled down, they are: don't have warped priorities, don't blaspheme, don't worship idols, don't lie, don't steal, don't murder, don't disrespect your parents, don't envy, rest on one day every week, and don't have sex with anyone who is not your (heterosexual) spouse. By adhering to these commandments, including "Love your neighbor as yourself" (from the New Testament), NOBODY is going to do any wrong in this world, nor trample upon anyone else's "rights". There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with living as a Christian should live.

In contrast, switching from the Christian way to the morally relativistic way makes people run the risk of trampling on the rights of others. That's the only reason why conservatives despise the modern liberal agenda anyway. Its most nefarious aspect is trampling on the rights of others. You want to give government recognition to homosexual relationships? Whatever. God will judge that - none of us humans can. But DON'T MAKE THE REST OF US ACCEPT IT AS EQUAL TO HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE. Some will accept it - don't force us all to accept it... because in so doing you have trampled on our rights. You want your right to marry? Great. I retain the right to say that it is not the same. If the government treats it as the same, whatever. If I don't want to, that remains my right... and if I don't want to serve your "marriage" at my business because I find it sinful, I have the right to do so... at least in an ideal America. But our rights have gotten trampled by this agenda. Heaven knows, freedom of speech is a "right" in the Constitution. But now, see, to speak out against anything so codified as the modern homosexual agenda makes you guilty of "hate speech" even if you aren't advocating "hate" in any way. All you have to do is speak out against it and automatically you are a hateful, bigoted, black-hearted homophobe. That's my point. It has now abridged the rights of the rest of Americans. You want to stand up for the rights of everyone? Stand up equally strongly for my right to say things and do things that you don't want to hear or see... as long as, in so doing, I do not directly and materially harm you. If you won't stand up for that right, you're ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENT from any conservative who essentially doesn't stand up for the rights of the liberal lot to do and say things that we don't like.

So just stop all of this garbage about moral relativism and whatever. NOBODY CARES. So the other barking dogs know that there's one more in their ranks. Big deal. Those of us on the other side of the fence DO NOT CARE. You won't recruit us, you won't change us. If anyone is being hateful, it's you. I, for one, have never called any such modern liberal a name, at least not outside of a private conversation with someone to whom I am close. (And the one time I tried using the same words they love to use, publicly, it became very clear that they don't like to swallow their own medicine!) It is the liberals who tar us conservatives with epithets. So if we're "homophobes" (afraid of gays), what are y'all - "Christophobes" (afraid of Christians)? The pernicious part of the names applied to us is that none of them are true. We don't hate homosexuals - we see them as sinners in need of redemption just as everyone is. We aren't intolerant of people who live a homosexual lifestyle - we're intolerant of homosexuality. Love the sinner, hate the sin. We aren't bigoted against homosexuals - we are opposed to the lifestyle and believe that it needs to change... but we know that it never will unless the people themselves are accepted as being equally human with us. On and on and on.

The hateful blather comes from your side, not mine. Reread my posts, and the posts of the few other conservatives on this thread. You won't find one hateful word in there. Now, reread YOUR posts, and see what comes up. You call God a "sky daddy". When was the last time any of us applied any such replacement name toward any of the homosexuals or supporters of such on this thread? (I think you know that there are many such names out there.)
Honestly, the hate comes from many christians, as you just showed. I do not hate christians or any religions, but why must I tolerate the blather from those who blindly believe in a god? Science cannot prove god does not exist, because it does not exist, period. Always the burden of proof is upon those who claim this blind faith in an ivisible and impossible to prove intity. No matter how much or how many time people like you belch out your words of wisdom, they mean nothing to me. Yes I call it a sky daddy, as many of you call us perverts, pedophiles, abominations of your bible. It is many of those pushing their beliefs on everyone that are being hateful and judgemental. Why must you try to force everyone to believe in your god. God is a figment of man, created by man, there is more proof of evolution than of creation which has zero proof.
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Old 09-15-2013, 10:50 AM
 
4,838 posts, read 4,026,882 times
Reputation: 1836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg Bach View Post
extremism ---the re-definition of sex is just to far out there for me to take seriously.
What's the redefinition? Sex is getting off, whether it's with a man or a woman.
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Old 09-15-2013, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Montreal, Quebec
15,084 posts, read 13,740,849 times
Reputation: 9779
Quote:

We don't hate homosexuals - we see them as sinners in need of redemption just
as everyone is. We aren't intolerant of people who live a homosexual lifestyle -
we're intolerant of homosexuality. Love the sinner, hate the sin. We aren't
bigoted against homosexuals - we are opposed to the lifestyle and believe that
it needs to change... but we know that it never will unless the people
themselves are accepted as being equally human with us. On and on and
on.
Hmmmm....here's the thing. You married a 400 pound woman. Are you not aware that gluttony is a sin? If gluttons are allowed to get married, why not gays? Gluttony is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, and it's mentioned in your Bible far more than homosexuality.

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT GLUTTONY

http://www.gotquestions.org/gluttony-sin.html

It's this never-ending hypocritical cherry-picking to suit your biblical agendas that gets our goat.
Proverbs 23 says a glutton should put a knife to his own throat. You seem to have no problem with it, while denigrating homosexuals.

Last edited by weltschmerz; 09-15-2013 at 01:17 PM..
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Old 09-15-2013, 01:41 PM
 
Location: I live wherever I am.
1,935 posts, read 4,548,944 times
Reputation: 3308
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltschmerz View Post
Hmmmm....here's the thing. You married a 400 pound woman. Are you not aware that gluttony is a sin? If gluttons are allowed to get married, why not gays? Gluttony is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, and it's mentioned in your Bible far more than homosexuality.

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT GLUTTONY

Is gluttony a sin? What does the Bible say about overeating?

It's this never-ending hypocritical cherry-picking to suit your biblical agendas that gets our goat.
Proverbs 23 says a glutton should put a knife to his own throat. You seem to have no problem with it, while denigrating homosexuals.
My wife hasn't engaged in gluttony ever, since I met her. She hardly eats, when she does eat... actually, I make fun of her, saying that she has a stomach the size of a lemon. She'll eat until she's comfortably full (which doesn't take much), and then she's hungry again in three hours.

Plus, she has been losing weight ever since I first met her... and that's not through surgery or treatment of any kind. She recognizes that what she did in her younger years was wrong. I happen to know why she did what she did, but that's personal information that I don't need to divulge.

So my wife is no longer a glutton. She was cured of that sin many years ago.

If EX-gluttons are allowed to get married, then so are EX-homosexuals. *win*
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Old 09-15-2013, 01:56 PM
 
Location: McKinleyville, California
6,413 posts, read 10,130,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
My wife hasn't engaged in gluttony ever, since I met her. She hardly eats, when she does eat... actually, I make fun of her, saying that she has a stomach the size of a lemon. She'll eat until she's comfortably full (which doesn't take much), and then she's hungry again in three hours.

Plus, she has been losing weight ever since I first met her... and that's not through surgery or treatment of any kind. She recognizes that what she did in her younger years was wrong. I happen to know why she did what she did, but that's personal information that I don't need to divulge.

So my wife is no longer a glutton. She was cured of that sin many years ago.

If EX-gluttons are allowed to get married, then so are EX-homosexuals. *win*
Baloney, overeating is something one can change, being gay is not something one can just change. Also sin is only relative to your beliefs and bible and does not pertain to all people. Why must you insist that everyone follows your tenets? And my partner of 34 years and I have been married for five years now and it is recognized by the state and the US federal government, that is what counts to me, I don't care one hoot what your bible or your beliefs are, they are yours not mine. Do not like gay marriage, don't have one, don't go to one. But it is not up to you, your church or your beliefs what the government decides is equality for everyone.
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Old 09-15-2013, 02:10 PM
 
Location: McKinleyville, California
6,413 posts, read 10,130,140 times
Reputation: 4285
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
It is not the conservatives nor the Christians who are "bigoted". No Christian who has half a clue about Christianity would state that a person who lives a homosexual life is any less human or any less able to seek redemption through Jesus Christ, compared to anyone else. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell Christians to "hate" others. The closest it comes is telling Christians to avoid other people who call themselves Christians yet live in flagrant sin. Quite contrarily, check out 1 Corinthians 5:9-13:

"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

Let's take it from the top: Don't hang with people who live in sin, if they call themselves Christians. However, you CAN keep company with sinners who don't call themselves Christians, since they're all over the place. (In so doing, you might stand to win them over to Christianity.) God will judge people who are not Christians, so there's no harm in Christians associating with them as long as the Christian is, at least, leading by example and not in any way susceptible to being corrupted by those people.



Don't make the same mistake that so many people make. Don't assume that your actions being judged equates to you being judged as a person. Again, no Christian worth his salt would judge even the worst of sinners as being a "bad person". It's possible that he is, but we can't know for sure. The truth is that everyone, including those we call "inhuman" or "monsters" or whatever, is doing what he/she thinks is best for himself/herself. Deep down, NOBODY does anything with 100% conscious malicious intent. Christians are to judge actions, not people. That's all over the Bible. Read up about it.



Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

98.1% Christian (various denominations), 1.9% Unitarian. The founding fathers were OVERWHELMINGLY Christian.

At least you tried.



Here I agree with you 100%. And consider this: For as much as YOU and all other non-Christians despise watching Christians behave hypocritically, imagine how much more we Christians despise it, given that it doesn't impact the image of YOUR side of the fence negatively, but it sure does serious damage to OUR image.



If I, as a DJ, refuse to DJ a "gay wedding", and can be sued or shut down because of that, guess what, that's force.



I don't dislike homosexuals. I dislike homosexuality. I define "homosexual" as "a person who chooses to live a lifestyle marked by a tendency to engage in romantic relationships with, physical/sexual relationships with, and/or lust toward people of their same gender". It is a CHOICE. This means that the person committing the choice is, as a human being, equal to the rest of us. He is a sinner, as are all of us. He makes "wrong" choices (such as living a homosexual life), as we all make our own type of "wrong" choices. And like anyone else, he needs to turn from, and repent of, his sins. There's nothing to dislike. It's no different from a person who cusses. It's a PERSON....... who does a bad thing. The bad thing is to be hated - not the person.

But it's understandable that you would misinterpret this. After all, you and all of the other liberals have been brainwashed to believe that Christian hatred of a sinful action equals hatred of the human being committing the action. Learn to decouple the two... it will enlighten you, for sure.

However, if we change what you said to "Just like you have the fight to dislike homosexuality", I agree with you. I should be able to say that I don't approve of it, and its supporters should be able to call me an idiot for that. I don't mind being called names, because such does nothing but expose the infantile maturity level of the name-callers. I mind how I am expected to respect the opinions of those who support homosexuality but those people don't respect my opinion. If there was universal respect, there'd be no name-calling nor anger during conversations about such.



I don't want to be disrespected by people who demand that type of respect from everyone else.



Remove all forms of legal requirement that people accept homosexual marriage while operating in their own private lives, or while operating in their jobs or businesses outside of any government situation, and you might find opposition to gay marriage diminishing. Ultimately, the conservatives believe that it differs from the historical situations of discrimination against blacks and women. Blacks were born black, they had absolutely no control over their heritage, and unless they have bazillions of dollars like Michael Jackson did, they will never be able to do anything about the color of their skin. Women were born women, and regardless of what you hear about "sex change operations", a person CAN NEVER truly change gender. These things are genetically provable. Thus, since it is scientifically provable that there is absolutely no element of "personal choice" involved in one's ethnicity or one's gender, there is no reason to discriminate against ethnicity nor gender. It has never been scientifically proven that homosexuality is a similar "congenital condition" that is inescapable. Thus, it does not equal ethnicity nor gender.

Essentially, give everyone else the freedom to say what they want to say about gay marriage, without calling it "hate speech"... and give everyone the freedom to choose whether or not they serve homosexuals if they're in business, without calling it a "hate crime"... and this won't be such a fiery debate.



I have no idea how you came up with this, but I doubt I want to know.



See above.



Since God cannot be conclusively proven (as such would totally obliterate the aspect of "faith in God"), you can go on for the rest of your life choosing to believe that God doesn't exist... and in so doing, choose to accept the consequences (should there be any, as y'all might say).

And when was the last time I called a gay person a pervert? I don't think I've used that word even once since I was in middle school. Homosexuals are not necessarily pedophiles. I haven't called any person an abomination.

I'm not forcing anyone to believe in God. But why must WE be forced to accept gay marriage through having it rammed down our throats with legislation? Don't give me any run-around about "well, it's the law"... why was it codified into law? Why wouldn't it be enough to allow gays to marry, and allow the rest of us to choose whether or not we will support or serve such? Why did the overwhelming majority of us have to lose some of OUR freedom just to allow 2% of the population to have more?
The reason same sex marriage/ marriage equality had to be legislated into being was because of the ignorance and bias by the population. 99% of everything that people have to say about us gay people are negative and biased, they are not based on any fact, HECK, you wont even accept our own testimony that we did not choose our sexual orientation, no different than one born black or female. You yourself and most straight people claim to have always been straight, that they are repulsed by gay sex. Yet cannot even see that we are the same, we are often too repulsed by the idea of people of opposite sex having sex. Nothing will ever convince you or others with your opinion that we are gay and not by choice and all of your bible rhetoric means squat when it comes to laws that govern all of us in this country, not laws that just favor straight people and because of mass, the christians. You do know that interracial marriage and women voting also had to be legislated with an uproar from the naysayers of equality and progress.
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Old 09-15-2013, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Northridge/Porter Ranch, Calif.
24,058 posts, read 31,625,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDragonslayer View Post
You have blind faith in something with no proof of. You are the one with the burden to show proof of a god you claim exists, yet cannot show any proof but to just say you have faith in its existance. Still does not show or prove the existance of your sky daddy.. One would think with all the technology and science we have that something like that would be simple. But one cannot prove the existance of something that does not exist.
I don't have "blind faith." I have faith, period.

And why should I try to "prove" something exists to those who don't and wouldn't believe it anyway?

However, I do think you should not insult those who have faith ("sky daddy"). Why not let people have their own beliefs (and faiths)? Do you really have to insult their religious beliefs?

Do you know when you will get your "proof?" When your life on this Earth is over (which hopefully won't be for a long time). Then you will understand. I can wait.
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