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There is scientific proof that people are born with their gender and their race. You cannot become a female if you were born a male, and you cannot become a male if you were born a female. You cannot become white if you were born black, you cannot become Native American if you were born Hispanic, etc, etc, etc.
Such scientific proof does not exist, to show beyond doubt that we are born with our sexuality. All we have are studies that lean one way or the other. That's not good enough.
Actually, one can change their gender. We have that technology, yet I believe your party is ok with discriminating against them too because they don't conform with out official unelected tyrannical king, God. And once more, who cares if it is a choice?
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They're related insofar as they're also choices which, thus far, have been illegal in American but have been practiced by small fringe groups. This is what homosexuality was, until recently. Therefore, if homosexuality is fully legalized through the "right to marry" all over the place and what not, then what stops those other fringe groups from seeking full legalization of their lifestyles? Why should they be discriminated against?
That's not really how it works, but ok. I'd actually love to hear a non-biblical reason as to why things like bestiality and polygamy are wrong (one of which was in fact in the Bible, possibly both).
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If the consent of the animal is so important, why can we castrate our pets or get hysterectomies for them without consent? I sure as heck wouldn't want anyone castrating me without consent and I'd bet most men would say the same thing!
Why can parent circumcise their infant without it's consent? Why can you force your child to believe in your religion without asking what they would like?
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You know what they say about "if you don't have anything nice to say to someone, don't say anything at all"?
Yet you're the one whining about getting your right to not like gay people taken away.
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But even if we figure that it is rape, fifty shekels of silver was quite a bit of money in those days. If he couldn't pay, death for violation of the law. Also, he must marry her and he MAY NOT put her away all his days. (If he did, death for violating the law!) Frankly, I think that's quite a bit of punishment for the man. I can totally envision the woman making his life a living hell... causing the man to wish he'd never touched her, rather quickly.
Oh my... you just justified the Bible's ridiculous rape laws. And now you expect us to take you seriously?
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Biblical context, my friend. (Not like my saying that will make much of a difference...)
It's not that people consider that point invalid, it's that you only use it when it's convenient for you.
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What's simple is that I am to judge them as I am commanded by God to judge. That is, I am to judge actions as "sin" or "not sin", and treat people according to their actions so as to avoid corrupting myself and confusing the message of Christ. All people are worthwhile and valuable... it's actions that are to be judged.
You support freedom of religion yet that completely violates the 1st commandment. Why is it that gay people can't get married legally as the Bible says yet you are ok with other religions being legally protected despite the fact that the Bible made it clear to only believe in the 'right' god.
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And both empires fell. America is next, you know. If upholding gay relationships a strong society made, you'd think those empires wouldn't have fallen.
Are you suggesting that accepting gay people in society is what causes Rome to fall (Greece was not an empire, and was actually conquered by Rome)? Because that is incredibly stupid.
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All people are indeed created equal. But we are treated differently because of our choices. A perfect example is how some of us are incarcerated and some of us are totally free, based upon our choices in life. That doesn't mean we're unequal.
You said yourself that there is no proof that being gay is a choice or not. However, on BS mountain where you currently reside, it's ok for YOU to assume it is but incredibly unfair of anyone else to assume it isn't... Do me a favor and Google the word 'hypocrite' and tell me what you think about it.
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I do agree that Bush 43 was not the greatest, nor the smartest President we've ever had. He made more than a couple of huge mistakes along the way... which could have been avoided by using his brain. Nobody is perfect. But the only way that we can educate people better is by taking the government out of education, such that TEACHERS (not politicians) can determine how best to educate. The people calling the shots for education should be people who have taught in a classroom... not people who rode their connections and their big-money family names all the way to a seat in the federal (or even state) government.
Government needs to step in. Look at Texas, they want creationism taught in place (or maybe along side of) science. This is utter nonsense and the exact opposite of educating people.
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But how do we define a boy and a girl? These days there's a big uproar over transgendered "boys" and "girls", and how they're being treated in school (such as what bathroom they'll use). Just because some kid got his genitals chopped off or mutilated, and has been on hormone treatment, that doesn't mean he/she changed gender.
I wouldn't know how to determine if a transgender is a boy or a girl. I assume what genital they have, testosterone/estrogen levels, and generally how they identify themselves would be the way to do this. You'd have to ask someone who more knowledge in the area to determine that.
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Seriously, think about this. Vermont could be the land of organics and conservation, where genetically modified food was strictly verboten and every house was required to have solar panels. Utah could be where polygamous marriage could be practiced openly and legally. Texas could be where everyone can carry a gun openly and legally, and if you blow someone away while watching that person commit a crime (and there'd be any evidence backing that assertion), you're totally legally immune. California could be where marijuana and any other drug they choose would be legal and readily available. Nevada - legalized gambling of all kinds, as well as legalized prostitution of all kinds. Pennsylvania - no restrictions on hunting, on your own property... and 4-wheelers are street legal.
This won't happen. I doubt it's even possible. Besides, that would only help for majority groups. Equality for minorities would still be nonexistent. With things like racism and homophobia, I don't care. If people want to be racist, by all means, be racist. Just don't infringe on other people's rights.
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Could it be that we just haven't located other accounts yet? I've read articles about Bible-era towns, artifacts, etc. being found all the time. Maybe it's just around the corner. As for it being common knowledge that all of that stuff you said above is true, I think that at least 1 billion of the 2 billion people who claim to be Christian would disagree with you... and the only reason why it wouldn't be all 2 billion is because too many people don't understand what it really means to be Christian.
Sure, it could exist. The thing is, assuming it exists vs. it actually existing are two separate things.
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Freedom of religion was the one reason why the United States of America was founded anyway. People escaped England so they could worship God as they pleased, without having to belong to the Anglican church. I agree that this one choice has always been protected but given that it was the cornerstone of this country, I don't think it can be equated with the gay agenda. America wasn't founded so that homosexuals could have a haven.
America, as stated in the constitution, is supposed to be a place where EVERYONE is free. Somehow, over time, that got translated into white protestant people. We've removed some racial barriers and gender barriers, but we have a long way to go before we've reached the level of civil rights that other European democracies have reached (most of which are much better off than America currently is; it's important to note how secular many of those countries are).
There is scientific proof that people are born with their gender and their race. You cannot become a female if you were born a male, and you cannot become a male if you were born a female. You cannot become white if you were born black, you cannot become Native American if you were born Hispanic, etc, etc, etc.
Such scientific proof does not exist, to show beyond doubt that we are born with our sexuality. All we have are studies that lean one way or the other. That's not good enough.
Actually, there is plenty of proof. Check out the readings by neuroscientist Simon LeVay. Also, you should be aware of the sexual reassignment surgeries that were the result of botched circumcisions. There were infant boys that were given gender reassignment surgery and raised as female due to a penis that was mutilated. In every case, in spite of these (biological) heterosexual boys raised as girls in every way, they were still heterosexual boys by nature, and although were raised as girls, experienced sexual attraction to girls after going through puberty. See the book "As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised a Girl" by John Colapinto. This is more proof that sexual attraction is not a learned behavior. Gay people are not lying when they tell you their orientation is not a choice. The problem is, people like yourself that are so obsessed with the issue to begin with.
Oh what harm does it do to pretend...Let them take on any role they want...if a person wants to be a wife who is a male or a woman wants to take on the old traditional role of male in regards to her relationship with a submissive female...let them...after all we all played house as kids....and if gays want to pretend they are just like their parents and want to have similar family lives - the kind they had as kids with their parents - let them....who cares....The human condition can be dismal and people should be entitled to seek comfort where they can.
This post epitomizes your total lack of understanding of sexual orientation. A homosexual man does not want to emulate a woman, nor does he want to be married to a man that emulates a woman. It is about a man who likes being a man in every way as much as a heterosexual man does, but prefers to be married to a man and is attracted to his masculinity, the same way a heterosexual man is attracted to a woman for her femininity.
Oh what harm does it do to pretend...Let them take on any role they want...if a person wants to be a wife who is a male or a woman wants to take on the old traditional role of male in regards to her relationship with a submissive female...let them...after all we all played house as kids....and if gays want to pretend they are just like their parents and want to have similar family lives - the kind they had as kids with their parents - let them....who cares....The human condition can be dismal and people should be entitled to seek comfort where they can.
Seriously dude, you need to learn about sexuality and sexual orientation, your ignorance makes you look foolish. I am a gay man who is masculine and I am attracted to men who are masculine, my partner is masculine. My neighbors are lesbians and both are feminine women. This stupid agenda of some bigots to portray us as the opposite of our sex because of who we are attracted to just shows how narrow minded they are. I have no desire to be a woman nor to be with a woman.
Can you disprove the historical accuracy of the Bible? Many a historian has examined it and the worst number I've ever seen is "99.5% accurate"... and who's to say that that 0.5% wasn't some hiccup in the historian's own study?
Are you seriously asserting that ANY reputable historian/scholar, even one specializing in biblical history, has claimed The Bible is 99.5% accurate?
I absolutely DO NOT BELIEVE YOU.
Sure, there are probably 20 thousand apologetics websites like AnswersInGenesis.com or MyHolyBookIsRightAndAllYourOtherOnesAreWrongNannyn annyBooboo.com that will "back up" this wild and ludicrous claim of yours.
But I am talking about actual, reputable historians and scholars publishing peer-reviewed papers which result in a general consensus in the community that The Bible is 99.5% correct?
I can't believe you or any other (supposed) adult in the 21st century can even give that baseless, ludicrous notion a single thought without chuckling.
But again, the historical accuracy of The Bible (while I concede it contains some actual history of people, places and events) is about the least important thing to consider about it. It is full of beauty and wisdom and mystery and majesty. This is coming from a nonbeliever, mind you.
I consider The Bible perhaps the pinnacle achievement of the human mind and heart. I still read it frequently and certain passages from it never fail to move me greatly.
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Yeah, I do believe that, but again it's not one of those fully conscious decisions. Like the decision to be gay, it is largely influenced by subliminal messaging... or, should I say, the conscientious parents' protection of their children from such.
So what?
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And to address "if people have chosen to be gay, so what?"... again, if we legalize and protect one small group's choice, we have to legalize and protect all such choices... when you legalize and protect all choices, pandemonium ensues.
Abject horse poop. We are talking about a private issue between consenting individuals; not acts that impinge on the rights and freedoms of others or harm anyone else. To claim that if we allow same sex marriages (which, of course, is already happening and will continue to spread and gain support, as it should) we will then have to go on to allow gangs of rapists the freedom to commit their crimes because "it's their choice" or let groups of animal-haters go around wantonly abusing and killing animals because they have chosen to is about the most infantile and baseless thing I've yet heard on this thread. And that is saying something.
Incidentally, while I am NOT equating race with sexual orientation (because the small minded people will rush in to say "Ah! But being black isn't a CHOICE! Race isn't the same thing!" even while they are happy to repeatedly discredit themselves and weaken their "argument" by equating homosexuality with bestiality and pedophilia) this is the exact same "reasoning" the bigots of a few decades ago used to oppose interracial marriage:
"If we let black people marry white people, why, pretty soon people will be suing to marry their own children, and their farm animals, and all of their kitchen appliances! It'll be anarchy!!!"
Complete hateful, ignorant, wrongheaded BS.
And today we view those who opposed interracial marriages in the 50s and 60s as pathetic throwbacks to the Dark Ages. And rightly so. In a few short years, most people will view those who rail against equality with regard to same sex marriage in the exact same way.
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Originally Posted by txdave35
Seems like a lot of people are quite intolerant of my right to oppose gay marriage.
You have the right to oppose anything you want. You have a right to absolutely despise homosexuals, or Latino immigrants, or left-handed people, or any other group you want. You are free to promote the idea that all people of Middle Eastern descent should be rounded up and shipped to a desert island.
Just don't be disappointed if you encounter some resistance or have people point you out for being a bigot. (And I am not suggesting you endorse any of the above things. Merely examples.)
But we should remember, the only appropriate response to bigotry is to be bigoted against it. The only appropriate response to intolerance is to be intolerant of it.
We should also remember the fact that there is not one single reason to be offended by or disgusted by homosexuality, and not one single reason to oppose same sex marriages, that doesn't arise from a place of fear, hate, ignorance, bigotry, or some combination thereof.
Not one reason.
To preclude consensual adults from marrying based solely on their gender is the very definition of bigotry and discrimination.
And we should never endorse or allow systematic discrimination in this country.
Seriously dude, you need to learn about sexuality and sexual orientation, your ignorance makes you look foolish. I am a gay man who is masculine and I am attracted to men who are masculine, my partner is masculine. My neighbors are lesbians and both are feminine women. This stupid agenda of some bigots to portray us as the opposite of our sex because of who we are attracted to just shows how narrow minded they are. I have no desire to be a woman nor to be with a woman.
Once again, it's the ignorant outlook that all homosexuals are some homogeneous "hive mind" who all have the same attitudes, beliefs, emotional responses, desires, etc.
Such nonsense.
People are people. The color of their skin, their sexual orientation, their cultural background...these things don't define a person as an individual.
It's akin to saying "All Christians are like the KKK or members of the Westboro Baptist Church!"
or
"All Muslims are violent terrorist extremists out to kill!"
or
"All people receiving government assistance are lazy, good for nothing drug addicts!"
You have the right to oppose anything you want. You have a right to absolutely despise homosexuals, or Latino immigrants, or left-handed people, or any other group you want. You are free to promote the idea that all people of Middle Eastern descent should be rounded up and shipped to a desert island.
Just don't be disappointed if you encounter some resistance or have people point you out for being a bigot. (And I am not suggesting you endorse any of the above things. Merely examples.)
But we should remember, the only appropriate response to bigotry is to be bigoted against it. The only appropriate response to intolerance is to be intolerant of it.
We should also remember the fact that there is not one single reason to be offended by or disgusted by homosexuality, and not one single reason to oppose same sex marriages, that doesn't arise from a place of fear, hate, ignorance, bigotry, or some combination thereof.
Not one reason.
To preclude consensual adults from marrying based solely on their gender is the very definition of bigotry and discrimination.
And we should never endorse or allow systematic discrimination in this country.
Lol, and you just demonstrated intolerance for my right to hold onto long traditional Christian values. If I don't go along with YOUR idea of society, I am automatically a bigot. No questions asked. Anyone that opposes homosexuality is a bigot. Let's say you find sex with animals to be morallly offensive. Would you like it if someone automatically labeled you to be a bigot because you believe it was unnatural?
And your bluster that there is not one valid reason to be offended by homosexuality is nothing more than YOUR opinion, not fact. I believe homosexuality is taking something beautiful that God designed and doing the exact opposite of it. So yea, it is offensive. Break it down to a physical level, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a woman's body was designed specifically to receive male's anatomy in a way that allows for a deep connection and intimacy.
Lol, and you just demonstrated intolerance for my right to hold onto long traditional Christian values.
Um...no. It would seem you have a deficit in reading comprehension. I just said, precisely that you (and anyone else) HAVE the right to believe and feel however you want. And that's how it should be.
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If I don't go along with YOUR idea of society, I am automatically a bigot. No questions asked. Anyone that opposes homosexuality is a bigot.
You don't have to "go along" according to my ideals or anyone else's, and I never said anything even remotely like that.
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Let's say you find sex with animals to be morallly offensive. Would you like it if someone automatically labeled you to be a bigot because you believe it was unnatural?
Well, first off, let's not make the foolish mistake of equating homosexuality with bestiality. The two things have as much to do with each other as chalk and cheese.
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And your bluster that there is not one valid reason to be offended by homosexuality is nothing more than YOUR opinion, not fact.
Oh, then I hope you can produce one. Because this:
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I believe homosexuality is taking something beautiful that God designed and doing the exact opposite of it. So yea, it is offensive. Break it down to a physical level, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a woman's body was designed specifically to receive male's anatomy in a way that allows for a deep connection and intimacy.
...certainly doesn't apply.
You are merely couching your bigotry in ignorance based on adherence to ancient religious laws that have no bearing on the modern world.
The Bible also tells us that it is a sin to eat shellfish or wear clothes containing two different fabrics.
Do people who enjoy a nice lobster dinner or wear a cotton-poly blend shirt bother you equally?
No? Is it perhaps that you just find homosexuals "icky" and selectively quote your favored holy text in an attempt to justify this feeling?
Why yes. Yes, it is. And that's all it is.
Here, I'll point out this little fact again:
There is not one single reason to be offended by or disgusted by homosexuality, and not one single reason to oppose same sex marriage, that doesn't arise from a place of fear, hate, ignorance, bigotry, or some combination thereof.
If you can name one that isn't based on one of the conditions I mentioned, and isn't rooted in ancient writings of superstitious tribespeople, I'm all ears.
If we are going to use The Bible to systematically discriminate against a group of people whose actions are none of your business and harm nobody, let's get back to the law where adulterers are stoned to death in a public square why don't we?
It's your right to oppose gay marriage. It was and still is people's right to not like African Americans. It was and still is people's right to think women should be seen versus heard. It's also people's right to rebut your discriminatory thoughts and fortunately, your thinking is now in the minority according to nationwide polls and movements.
This is a ridiculous argument. It's still the right of people to not like African Americans? Do you honestly think someone can feel free to stand on a street corner and make racist comments against black people without severe consequences? I'm sure even the police could find some way to throw you in jail for that. Look at what happened to Paula Deen this summer. She admitted to using the N word decades ago, and was crucified. She lost her business and livelihood that she worked hard to build. Explain to me how that is a "right". Christians do not have a right to oppose homosexuality whenever there are severe consequences involved. That's like saying I have a right to go out and rob a bank.
Also, nationwide poll data can be manipulated. I find it hard to believe that most Americans just suddenly decided homosexuality was not a sin.
This is a ridiculous argument. It's still the right of people to not like African Americans?
Why, of course it is! Most definitely.
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Do you honestly think someone can feel free to stand on a street corner and make racist comments against black people without severe consequences? I'm sure even the police could find some way to throw you in jail for that.
Well, technically you wouldn't be breaking the law unless you were trying to incite people to violence. That might be considered hate speech. Or if your street-preaching was interfering with the running of a business or you attempted to do it on private property.
While I believe the activities of the KKK are not very much in evidence these days, they still apply for permits to have rallies in towns, and are granted the opportunity to do so.
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Look at what happened to Paula Deen this summer. She admitted to using the N word decades ago, and was crucified. She lost her business and livelihood that she worked hard to build. Explain to me how that is a "right".
That had nothing at all to do with any law. I agree she was unnecessarily pilloried and the PC crud can really get out of hand. But she did nothing illegal; she just was tried in the court of public taste as a celebrity with a lot of endorsements.
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Christians do not have a right to oppose homosexuality whenever there are severe consequences involved.
What "severe consequences" are involved? People confronting you with the idea that trying to prevent same sex marriage or endorsing systematic discrimination of homosexuals can justifiably be considered wrong and evidentiary of bigotry and intolerance? Other than having to deal with people who disagree with you (and the fact that same sex marriage is gaining acceptance and spreading to more and more states and will eventually be seen as perfectly normal and acceptable (as it should be), there are no severe consequences.
And please, please do not pretend that Christians are somehow mistreated, marginalized or persecuted in this nation. That is nothing but a huge crock of BS.
Close to 80% of all Americans self-identify as Christian. A majority that large is clearly not going to be some woefully hard put-upon segment of society.
Beyond that, you cannot drive 6 blocks in any town or city in this nation without seeing at least one church, one mega-church, or at least a billboard ad for a church.
Christians in America have their own television networks, radio stations, publishing companies, chains of retail business, advertising firms, legal firms, clothing lines, record labels, and on and on and on.
And that is all well and good, That is how it SHOULD be. This is a free country and Christians are free to engage in those activities and businesses if they wish to.
I also personally feel the vast majority of Christians are perfectly intelligent, reasonable, peaceful people.
But let's not pretend they are somehow being persecuted or pushed aside just because they can't make biblical law the law of the land in our country, or can't (most often) successfully push for creationism to be taught alongside science in public schools. That's silly.
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That's like saying I have a right to go out and rob a bank.
Infantile nonsense. That would be illegal. Feeling disgusted by homosexuals or opposing their rights to equality is not illegal. Nor should it be.
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I find it hard to believe that most Americans just suddenly decided homosexuality was not a sin.
Most Americans have realized that our Constitutional laws aren't and shouldn't be based on biblical law.
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